Karate in the Olympics?

[AshiharaFan]

This is repeating the same mistakes made in all the other sportified TMAs:


1) Thinking the casuals want to see a lot of high kicks

Yes, the casuals will cheer a high kick in MMA or KB, but a lot of its appeal is in its scarcity, not in the fact that it was done with the leg. If you take the "exciting" element and force it to happen every few seconds, it's no longer exciting. Compare the crowd reaction after a score in soccer and basketball.

Well, I never said that Azuma Takeshi implemented his point system with the thinking that the casual spectator wants to see high kicks. Kancho Azuma comes from Knockdown karate (Kyokushin) and has implemented kk's standards for awarding points; strong, balanced and well executed techniques which effectively knock down or knock's out one's opponent. KO kicks and kicks to the head in general are awarded so highly due to the difficulty of achieving a knockdown or knock out with such a technique as compared to punches which are easier and, of course, more expedient. To accomplish a head kick knockdown or KO demonstrates a skill level few people possess and says a lot about the hard work and dedication to put into being able to accomplish this and is awarded as such.

Also, the "exciting" elements and techniques are not forced. Unlike PKA kickboxing there is absolutely no minimum kick per round rule. A fighter can win fight by decision even if he threw only one kick in the entire fight. Because of this you'll see many Kudo fighters who actually fight like run of the mill boxers.

But since we are on this topic if we were to ask 100 casuals which they would find more impressive between a KO from a punch and a KO from a kick to the head I'll bet that well over half of them will say a KO kick to the head.

2) Thinking the casuals want to see non-violent fighting

They want it to look civilized, i.e. clearly distinguishable from an "uncivilized" real fight. This is different from looking non-violent. Remember Mayweather-Pacquiao? How much did the casuals like that safety fight? Remember Gatti-Ward?

I also never said that the rules were made to look more civilized than any other combat sport. I said specific rules, such as the mock GnP, are in place to protect the fighters and to minimize head trauma. If Kancho Azuma wanted Daido Juku/Kudo to to look more civilized than other combat sports he could have gone the route of point karate and not allow any punches to the face at all.

Also, comparing any of Mayweather's fights to any kudo fight is not even comparing apples to oranges; it's more like comparing a rotten piece of fruit with a fresh and healthy piece of fruit. Mayweather (as brilliant and as skilled a boxer he is ) runs and emergency clinches in all of his fights. That has nothing to do with rules being in place to look civilized; it has everything to do with one fighter (Mayweather) refusing to engage in all out warfare in the ring. You do not see this in kudo matches. In kudo you have a very, very limited amount of time to beat your opponent and because of this you will always see kudo fighters engaging in all out war in the kudo ring.

3) Not understanding the value of simplicity

All internationally popular sports like soccer and tennis are relatively easy to understand. A casual may not get the technical details, but a complete noob could watch theses sports for the first time and figure out 95% of the action within minutes. Because of (1) and (2), sport TMAs tend to have excessively complicated rules and the people behind it don't see the problem.

I think this is also a misunderstanding as kudo definitely understands the value of simplicity which is why you actually see more WINS, KNOCKDOWNS and KO's come via punches to the head instead of kicks. Watch a kudo match with a friend who is unfamiliar with the sport and watch as the two fighters (especially if they are Russians) bang it out with hard, fast and furious punches. Then pay attention to your friend's and the crowd's reaction when one of the fighters gets dropped during that heated punching exchange. Do you think your friend would not understand what had happened? Do you think your friend would not understand why the person who got dropped to the floor by a punch ends up losing the match at the end of the round?

you posted a boring fight where nothing happened except two of the least impressive and lowest points available under the rules. But since nothing interesting happened, it was enough.
you could just as well have posted this vid and said that a ko is a win
[YT]tN12eq0l93s[/YT]

I have to agree with this observation. There are plenty of kudo fights on yt most of which are fast paced and action packed and I think a person would have to search long and hard to find the boring match Combat Squirrel had posted.

PS. Edgar Kolyan is one of my favorite Kudo Fighters. He's a beast.

 

[Rod1]

Not anymore.

headgear is gone for experienced amateurs which obviously includes the Olympics, the scoring is back to 10 point scoring like in the pros for everyone and the gloves yes are one level more padded than in the pros so 12 oz for 154lbs guys and above but still "only" 10 oz for guys below WW.
And even with fewer rounds 3 rounds are still as long as most kickboxing fights

Good news.

They will still need to find a way to prevent fighters from being too injured to finish a tourmanent.

 

[Rod1]

I think the hundred's of styles and (most importantly) the absolute non cooperation and lack of mutual compromise for the sake of inclusion in the Olympics is one of the top 3 reasons I will bet my life savings karate will never become an Olympic sport.

TKD (as horrendous as it is as a sport) is much more uniform and united when it comes to being a sport. Their unity would really show it's strength when it comes to preventing karate from being included in the OG.

I am all but certain that point karate will never, ever be included in the Olympic Games.

Only WKF is recognized by the IOC.

WKF has also managed to get karate included in all major continental games, something will eventually get dropped in favor of karate, its just too big to ignore when there are so many crappy sports in the olympics. Its not like karate requires specialized facilities either.

 

[Combat Squirrel]

I'm going to try a different approach to explaining my point:

Take the last world cup in Kudo or any other style of knockdown Karate. How many people have watched it?

 

[Human Bass]

Kyokushin would be hugely popular due to all matches being balls to the walls. Now point karate will be to similar to TKD.

 

[shinkyoku]

I'm going to try a different approach to explaining my point:

Take the last world cup in Kudo or any other style of knockdown Karate. How many people have watched it?

Hard to say since they are not exactly shown live globally on regular tv. But the larger groups World Cups have most likely each had more viewers than Synchronized swimming, Water polo, shooting or several other small sports already in the Olympics. I agree that kudo is still too small to be in the running for a Olympic program spot (only the japanese, french and russians really have enough practitioners to make effective competing nations), but knockdown as a whole, if the unification attempts succeed, is a big sport (as opposite the many small factions of it individually).

incidentally, cricket (thats not in the olympics) has more followers than all combat sports put together. It is second in size only to football (real, not the american hand-egg), so just going by that it should replace judo, wrestling, boxing, tkd, AND fencing it the games.

 

[Combat Squirrel]

Nobody claims that synchronized swimming and water polo are great spectator sports.

People in here are delusional enough to think KD-Karate is a better spectator sport than boxing, when top level boxing draws millions and top level KD-Karate draws... a few hundred?

The International Cricket Council has 10 members, most of them underdeveloped. The sport is only big because India is big.

 

[AshiharaFan]

Only WKF is recognized by the IOC.

This is precisely my point. There are hundreds of other organizations (and styles) that want in on the Olympic hopes and dreams vying for a voice. And I will repeat that point karate is not distinctive enough to include it in the Olympic games when we already have tkd. As long as tkd is there point karate can forget about it.

 

[AshiharaFan]

but knockdown as a whole, if the unification attempts succeed, is a big sport (as opposite the many small factions of it individually).

This is 100% true and unfortunately this is also that double edged sword that will stand in the way of KK making it's way into the Olympic games.

 

[Jukai]

Yeah I can see why JKA might not be as aesthetically pleasing as WKF - but that said in all honesty I don't find it boring, in fact I prefer watching JKA to WKF.

I agree - JKA competition I think makes you infinitely better. I see great technical karate in JKA competitions that I don't see in any other point fighting format and its all controlled calculated technical karate at its finest imho. I like the way it also looks and feels less of a sport than its WKF counterpart.

I'd love to see a full contact version of JKA point fighting competition where you don't pull punches - it would make it even better imho.

Not pulling punches intrinsically makes the tournament difficult. If someone scores with proper technique and taps the guy, and the guy follows up with a sloppy haymaker that knocks the guy out, you have a winner who isn't able to continue.

Contact should be allowed, but the goal should still be controlled contact. It should just be like the JKA of the 70s and 80s where if you control your technique but someone bullrushes you and gets KO'd, it still scores.

Stop point sparring can't exist in full contact.

 

[Rod1]

This is precisely my point. There are hundreds of other organizations (and styles) that want in on the Olympic hopes and dreams vying for a voice. And I will repeat that point karate is not distinctive enough to include it in the Olympic games when we already have tkd. As long as tkd is there point karate can forget about it.

Yet we have greco and freestyle.

Its all about lobbying power.

 

[Thai Otoshi]

If they did Kyoukushin, then I'd definitely be on board....

 

[shinkyoku]

Nobody claims that synchronized swimming and water polo are great spectator sports.

People in here are delusional enough to think KD-Karate is a better spectator sport than boxing, when top level boxing draws millions and top level KD-Karate draws... a few hundred?

The International Cricket Council has 10 members, most of them underdeveloped. The sport is only big because India is big.

who has claimed that kd karate is a better spectator sport than boxing? (I personally think so, but I accept that my point of view is warped since I am a practitioner).

Btw, the fact that boxing is well know while kd karate is not, is a factor. Boxing has had a long time to build a fan base

The point, which you missed completely, was that not all olympic sports are big spectator sports. Many are completely obscure and ignored by the masses except for a few days every 4 years, when they suddenly becomes important. And at the same time sports with huge fan bases are not part of the games.
So why do you think huge popularity is the main requirement for selection?

 

[Tayski]

I don't see why people argue about if KD Karate should be in the Olympics or not.
It's simply too violent to be in the Olympics. No protection, harsh KO's, and sometimes quite a lot of blood. How would that work in the Olympics?
For those exact same reasons we will most likely never see Muay Thai or MMA in the Olympics either unless they are heavily watered down.

And that's without taking into consideration that the other styles of Karate that are not full contact would be heavily against KD Karate being in the Olympics. The only possibility would be a WKF type of rules but then that's so close to Tae Kwon Do anyway...

To be honest, considering how the Olympics watered down arts like Tae Kwon Do and Judo, I'd rather Knockdown Karate never makes it to the Olympics.

 

[AshiharaFan]

I don't see why people argue about if KD Karate should be in the Olympics or not.
It's simply too violent to be in the Olympics. No protection, harsh KO's, and sometimes quite a lot of blood. How would that work in the Olympics?
For those exact same reasons we will most likely never see Muay Thai or MMA in the Olympics either unless they are heavily watered down.

And that's without taking into consideration that the other styles of Karate that are not full contact would be heavily against KD Karate being in the Olympics. The only possibility would be a WKF type of rules but then that's so close to Tae Kwon Do anyway...

To be honest, considering how the Olympics watered down arts like Tae Kwon Do and Judo, I'd rather Knockdown Karate never makes it to the Olympics.

Bravo! Great post. I agree with every bit especially the last two paragraphs. I too would rather NOT see KD Karate in the Olympics for fear of it morphing into yet another petty game of it tag in a dogi.

 

[OoopsaDaisey]

Sanshou/Sanda would make a dope olympic sport.

 

[Frode Falch]

Its not entertaining enough to the untrained eye.

- MMA
- Sanda
- K1/glory style kickboxing

Thats the three styles that would draw people to watch. And i am a muay thai guy. But i know that those three styles would be more entertaining to most people that watches sports.

 

[shinkyoku]

Bravo! Great post. I agree with every bit especially the last two paragraphs. I too would rather NOT see KD Karate in the Olympics for fear of it morphing into yet another petty game of it tag in a dogi.

I too, would rather not see knockdown karate in the Olympics. The risk of it watering down is too big. But I applaud the effort to get there, as it means unifying the tournament structure of all bickering factions into one big united world championship. And THAT I like!

 

[spacetime]

Replace Taekwondo in favour of Shinken Shobu Kyokushin (includes face punches with gloves)!

Or why not replace boxing with kickboxing.

 

[Emanuele]

Yesterday karate has been accepted as Olympic sport for 2020!
The rules are the ones of WKF (karate point)