Kansas bill bans TANF recipients from spending at movies or pools

[Bork]

Spoiler

Its not assistance. I don't need that money. That is a tax write off because I pay taxes on the interest on my mortgage. I also pay taxes on my income, and any taxes that I "overpay" are given back to me. You just lose more ground on your argument when you draw these nonsensical comparisons.

And btw, I'm bored with this conversation (been bored with it for about 5 replies or so), so I'll let you have the last irrational word.

thanks, I remember seeing that thread, I'll look it up.

No problem.

I also made a small edit to the post you quoted FWIW. Also, note that in that thread, the links are scattered in a couple of different posts. Everything appears to be of the first page of my post history though.

Now, I'm officially done for the day...

 

[panamaican]

What he was saying is that you don't have to go to an ATM machine and pay the fee. You can buy your groceries, or you can just buy a pack of gum at a gas station, and take 25 bucks out free of charge. I do it all the time.

He said that 1) There are plenty of free ATM's; and 2) You can also get free cash back at the register.

I disagreed with point #1. I don't disagree with point #2.

And as to point 2, there are fees associated with cash back. Some merchants pass them on to the customer, some don't.

 

[scrubido]

I don't see how this is poor shaming tbh. The only shame should be from having to be told that going to the movies when you can't feed yourself is a bad idea.

 

[xcvbn]

good, i'm down for the complete removal of mooches from the system, but seeing as that apparently will never happen, at least start enforcing what they spend free money on.

that includes pools too. poor people don't generally swim anyway (unless it's like a pond or some shit, there generally isn't public pools in low income areas. or is it just a coincidence that black people in the US pretty much suck at swimming?), going back to the polio scares mid century (not too mention segregation of public facilities)

go play basketball or soccer. or i dont know, jog or run or walk, it's free. problem solved

oh you wanna go to the movies on welfare? hell no playa, better hit up the local bootlegger or stream that shit

I truly understand and sympathize with you, playa, but the biggest welfare issue in this nation is the tax breaks, subsidies, and incentives for the filthy rich and corporations. I feel like all this anger and animosity should be targeting those racking in millions off the government, not Watermeloneisha and her $1k/month in assistance.

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

I'm gonna post what I typed earlier in this thread again


I think the issue people have with this is that while the richest of Kansas are getting massive tax cuts on the backs of Kansas middle class and poor, we are now telling those people who are carrying the brunt of the tax breaks they can't even go to a movie with the money that is theirs to begin with.

Sounds kind of messed up.

i think things like saying "casino" and "strip clubs" is a way to make the poorer individuals of the state to come off as real scum, while the richest are the noble ones not stealing from the poor and middle class.

 

[Bork]

No problem.

I also made a small edit to the post you quoted FWIW. Also, note that in that thread, the links are scattered in a couple of different posts. Everything appears to be of the first page of my post history though.

Now, I'm officially done for the day...

I was doing so well these past few days too.

I don't see how this is poor shaming tbh. The only shame should be from having to be told that going to the movies when you can't feed yourself is a bad idea.

Most likely, they have 0 data on all the stuff they're talking about which makes poor people look bad outside of the movies and pool. Or, if they do have data, it shows that a very small percentage of recipients use money in that way which is more likely a reflection of addiction/etc and won't be curbed by the bill as far as I can tell.

Anyway, it depends. While a parent may be better off mentally and physically by not skipping meals, how do you factor in them skipping meals to do more their children which, from my experience, is what at least some do. They shouldn't be shamed for trying to provide "happiness" for their kids even if it's arguably not the best financial decision.

 

[xcvbn]

Umm... Did you miss the part about how can get your TANF payments direct deposited into your checking account?

That's dandy, now take into account the other large percent(likely vast majority) of welfare recipients who don't have a bank and thus rely on withdrawing large amounts to go down to Wally world for a cashier's check. Or should they purchase 20 packs of gum separately to get their $500 cash back?

 

[Bork]

I'm gonna post what I typed earlier in this thread again


I think the issue people have with this is that while the richest of Kansas are getting massive tax cuts on the backs of Kansas middle class and poor, we are now telling those people who are carrying the brunt of the tax breaks they can't even go to a movie with the money that is theirs to begin with.

Sounds kind of messed up.

i think things like saying "casino" and "strip clubs" is a way to make the poorer individuals of the state to come off as real scum, while the richest are the noble ones not stealing from the poor and middle class.

This is how I see it. Funnily enough, I was reading an article about Warren Buffet taking advantage poor people in regards to mobile homes just before I saw this thread. Was having flash backs of ghetto loans while reading it since I had just got done arguing that here just a week ago.

But yeah, it seems as if a decent amount of people support crony capitalism, or at least turn a blind eye to it, whenever they can shit on the poor.

 

[xcvbn]

I'm gonna post what I typed earlier in this thread again


I think the issue people have with this is that while the richest of Kansas are getting massive tax cuts on the backs of Kansas middle class and poor, we are now telling those people who are carrying the brunt of the tax breaks they can't even go to a movie with the money that is theirs to begin with.

Sounds kind of messed up.

i think things like saying "casino" and "strip clubs" is a way to make the poorer individuals of the state to come off as real scum, while the richest are the noble ones not stealing from the poor and middle class.

This is precisely correct. Anger needs to be shifted towards those people, not the poor with zero work skills.

And let me tell you all something, public assistance isn't all it's cracked up to be. I was on it for a couple years as a single father with full custody of a baby turned toddler. First off, it requires every single personal and private information you possibly have(and your child's and they print it on virtually every piece of paper you get): SSN, birth certificate, bank accounts, etc plus if you live with others they want their information as well. Also, want some more invasive practices(they've since relaxed some)? While I was on it, a worker would come to my house, unannounced, to look through my pantry and snoop about the house. Now, I could refuse their entry, but they can make my life a living hell("hey, you didn't complete x paperwork, your aid is being suspended", abruptly without warning of course). I was also required to reapply every 3 months, they've since changed it to every 6 months and now 12 months.

What else...you cannot own a vehicle worth more than $3750(this is federally mandated and it dates back to the 90s) and you cannot possess more than $2000 in assets excluding only your vehicle, so good luck saving enough money to make the jump off of welfare- a predicament I was recently in.

My point is that people give up A LOT of freedom already to be on welfare, and while I see some good in that it discourages some people, it's not so hunky-dory and the state of Kansas are acting like a bunch of hypocritical assholes who will brush shoulders with the main assholes who benefit from social welfare at their fancy luncheons.

One proposal I would make, however, is a requirement for welfare recipients to purchase healthy food: only non-gmo, sustainably produced foods, and preferably locally sourced. And I'll argue a conspiracy here- the same assholes brushing shoulders at fancy luncheons own stakes in those shitty meat processing companies(Tyson, Foster Farms, etc), candy companies(Hersheys, etc), and last but not least the sugar water companies(Pepsi, Coke, etc) because then it's all about poor people and not taking their freedom of choice away. Get the fuck out of here

/rant

 

[KONG-D'SNT-TAP]

When Are we gonna wake up in this country and realize that this redistribution of wealth from the bottom up has eroded everything that once made America great.

Our middle class is dwindling and the poor are only getting poorer while the rich over the last 30 years have made more money than anytime in this country's history.

Inequality is at its highest and upward mobility is basically non existent to certain parts of our population, and it's only getting worse.

This idea that if you cut the richest people's taxes the money will translate elsewhere is a fallacy. Right now the rich are holding more money than anytime in history and their tax rates are extremely low.

If these people are taxed properly this country would have a huge turn around in 10 years time.

We not only need higher taxes on capital gains but less deductions on income and taxes well over 30% for these people.

Once the money is Injected into programs for the middle class you'll see a better economy, more money being spent in the economy and the entire country as a whole doing better.

Just like they did years ago.

 

[xcvbn]

Well Websters defines a handout as something (such as food, clothing, or money) that is given to someone who is poor.

A mortgage deduction is a tax write off.

A tax write off equates to more money in one's pocket. Fact.

 

[RedRocket44]

Isn't this pretty much unenforceable unless business owners... like strip club owners lol... will call the cops on customers at the expense of their own profits? If the TANF recipients can take cash out from the ATM what prevents them from spending it wherever, or are they required to keep and show receipts of every single purchase they make?

I was thinking the same thing...

Only way they could really get caught is if they are repeatedly using the card at an ATM at say a stripclub, but even then that's not proof the money was spent there -- just withdrawn.

 

[Anung Un Rama]

A tax write off equates to more money in one's pocket. Fact.

That does not equate it to a handout.

 

[LilMountain]

A tax write off equates to more money in one's pocket. Fact.

The gov taking less isn't a handout

 

[scrubido]

That's dandy, now take into account the other large percent(likely vast majority) of welfare recipients who don't have a bank and thus rely on withdrawing large amounts to go down to Wally world for a cashier's check. Or should they purchase 20 packs of gum separately to get their $500 cash back?

Or get $25 back a few times, go down to the local credit union and open up an account?

 

[xcvbn]

When Are we gonna wake up in this country and realize that this redistribution of wealth from the bottom up has eroded everything that once made America great.

Our middle class is dwindling and the poor are only getting poorer while the rich over the last 30 years have made more money than anytime in this country's history.

Inequality is at its highest and upward mobility is basically non existent to certain parts of our population, and it's only getting worse.

This idea that if you cut the richest people's taxes the money will translate elsewhere is a fallacy. Right now the rich are holding more money than anytime in history and their tax rates are extremely low.

If these people are taxed properly this country would have a huge turn around in 10 years time.

We not only need higher taxes on capital gains but less deductions on income and taxes well over 30% for these people.

Once the money is Injected into programs for the middle class you'll see a better economy, more money being spent in the economy and the entire country as a whole doing better.

Just like they did years ago.

There's also a raging war on upper middle class people($150k to $500k/year) from having tax breaks. To me, these are your small business owners and people who make up the majority of medium purchases(likely $20k to $50k in 'shit' a year purchased locally, they're not the ones leaving the country for months at a time spending their money overseas- those are your multimillionaires who are taxed closely to your middle to upper middle class people).

My brother in law is a fireman making close to $200k a year, but a quarter of that disappears due to taxes. He's forced trying to buy up property and other resource-sucking shit to lower his tax hit. But he's also the guy going out to the popular restaurants spending on average a few hundred a month, something middle class people can and should do to put money in their communities. He would probably do more if not having to give up a large percent of his income.

I think the 90% tax rate should be brought to those making $100mil or more, then scale it down from there. Anyone not able to afford a house in a county they both live and work in should not be required to pay any income taxes. In my area that's likely people earning less that $3,000/month. Just like the water crisis in California we're in drastic times here. Get the fuck out with Jerry Brown's effective 5% water cutback(he says it's 25%, but in context it's 25% of 20% of the total water, agriculture uses 80% and have not been forced to cutback) and get the fuck out with similar tax breaks for middle class and below. Throw these fucking people a bone here. Hell, let every family earning under $150k/year skip taxes a year and relieve all their tax debt.

 

[xcvbn]

That does not equate it to a handout.

I see a handout as a gift, and also a tax break a gift. It's like the solar incentives and the first time home buyer credit. If you buy either you those, you effectively pay less than face value for something. I can see the argument that you're still buying or paying for something in order to receive the break, but that's semantics. Getting more money back or paying less than an equal counterpart is a subsidy. So, can we agree these people are receiving government subsidies which equate to real world money?

 

[xcvbn]

Or get $25 back a few times, go down to the local credit union and open up an account?

First off, you're still arguing the multiple packs of gum angle. Secondly, not everyone can or would like a bank. My brother is one. He gets his check from work and cashes it at the convenience store. He would rather not deal with banks. Other people are flat out black listed by banks and simply can't do that. Remember, we're talking poor people here. There are also those aren't even educated on how to go about opening a bank, let alone retaining all of the necessary paperwork and identification needed to.

 

[klnOmega]

First off, you're still arguing the multiple packs of gum angle. Secondly, not everyone can or would like a bank. My brother is one. He gets his check from work and cashes it at the convenience store. He would rather not deal with banks. Other people are flat out black listed by banks and simply can't do that. Remember, we're talking poor people here. There are also those aren't even educated on how to go about opening a bank, let alone retaining all of the necessary paperwork and identification needed to.

If they are so uneducated they don't know what a bank is, or they are blacklisted, its probably best that they are rationed to $25/day

 

[Anung Un Rama]

I see a handout as a gift, and also a tax break a gift. It's like the solar incentives and the first time home buyer credit. If you buy either you those, you effectively pay less than face value for something. I can see the argument that you're still buying or paying for something in order to receive the break, but that's semantics. Getting more money back or paying less than an equal counterpart is a subsidy. So, can we agree these people are receiving government subsidies which equate to real world money?

you see a "hand out" and a "tax break" as a "gift" then argue that writing off something you buy or pay for is semantics....

I don't write the tax code.
I work and pay taxes on my income and my purchases.
when I overpay my taxes, or if my mortgage deduction puts me over the line, I get a refund. It is not a gift. It is not a handout. It is not even close to being synonymous with welfare.