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*Editors note: The complete Kakutogi Road archives of everything that has been covered so far can be found here: https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/kakutogi-road-the-complete-history-of-mma-mega-thread.4122634/ *
Welcome to the first part of our 2nd interview, in our ongoing quest to fully shed some light on the history of MMA. This humble scribe recently had the pleasure of traveling to Virginia to meet with an incredibly gracious man, and wrestling legend, in the form of Mark Fleming. Mark is a unique person in the scope of our project, as he was the first, and practically the only, westerner to enter the UWF-I with a considerable wealth of wrestling experience, both from the professional standpoint (having traveled all over the United States within the NWA from 1983-1986 and having a run in NJPW in 1989) as well as having the benefit of being under the watchful tutelage of one of the greatest pro wrestlers of all time in the legendary, Lou Thesz. One of the refreshing things about him was that he always his own man and prided himself on showcasing professional wrestling in the best possible light, as a worthy endeavor with the focus being on wrestling instead of silly gimmicks and nonsense. He was kind enough to give me over 5 hours of his time, so this will be the first part of a multi-part series. We cover a lot of ground in this interview, and this should appeal to both fans of pro wrestling and MMA history. More chapters will follow in the future.
Fleming putting Kiyoshi Tamura in a STF
MB: Thank you for taking the time to do this interview. I think that one of the interesting things about talking to you is that you went into this (the UWF-I) having the most actual wrestling experience up to that point, especially on the professional side. Some of the guys before you, like Tom Burton and JT Southern, had a little bit of pro wrestling experience, but nowhere near the level that you did. You went into the UWF-I with considerable experience, especially as a protegé of Lou Thesz.
Of course, Billy Scott came in later with Billy Robinson about a year and a half after you debuted, but you were the first person to arrive to the UWF-I with some real and serious wrestling experience. Although, Pez Whatley was there for like a min..
MF: Yeah, for a couple of matches. Two or three.
MB: But he didn't look very good in there. *both laugh*.
MF: I'll tell you the truth, just the way I explained it to Lou (Thesz) it was like I had to learn how to wrestle all over again. It was a new style to me. I used to work out with Anjo (Yoji) in the dojo over there because it was new. Also, I didn't approve of the kicks either, and you know, Lou didn’t either. Also, they made me wear those shin guards and I told Lou that I didn’t want to wear these damn things, they don’t feel comfortable… but Lou said “Look. Let’s just play by their rules.” My first match over there I wrestled Takada at the Korakuen Hall, and I was going for pinfalls…and there was no pinfalls!! (Both laugh)
They sent me tapes before I went over there to watch, and I told Lou “Man this isn’t wrestling, this is kicking.” And he said, “I know it’s bullshit, but just go along with it.”
MB: Ok. We’ll get back to that, but no doubt, that’s some good stuff. I suppose that the first thing that I should ask you is what was your first exposure to wrestling as a kid, or what was your first memory of wrestling where you saw it and knew that it was something that you wanted to do?
MF: Professional wrestling, or amateur?
MB: Either way. Let’s go with professional wrestling.
MF: I saw it on tv when I was a kid, and I went to this school, I think it was in 6th grade and some of the other boys in my class were trading wrestling magazines, but I didn’t know what it was because my family were not wrestling fans, and they were saying stuff like, “Yeah man, this stuff is on TV…blah blah blah, and that I should watch it on Saturday” and I did. I started watching it, and I started to become interested in it, but I was interested in it for a different reason. Even back then, when I was in 6thgrade, I don’t know what it is, but me and my dad are really close and he was always with me during all the sports I did, and he told me that I was looking at this thing (pro wrestling) differently than others. At that young age I was looking at the holds, and how they were applied, and I was interested more in that, and how it was all done, rather than the angles that they were doing.
MB: So you were less interested in the theatrical side of it?
MF: Yeah, the kids would talk about who was going to beat up who, and all that, but I didn’t have much interest in all that. I was more interested in the bumps they were taking and the holds that they were doing, as that just fascinated me, and that’s weird, but it’s just the way it was for me. My brother’s best friend wrestled in high school, and I would talk to him, and he would tell me that I would have to try out for high school wrestling. By that time, I was in 7th grade, and I think I was 13 years old. He told me where to go to the high school and talk to the coach, his name and what he looked like. However, when I went there, I couldn’t get inside as the school was locked. Later on, I happened to be at a high school football game and one of my sister’s best friends brother wrestled. He was a state champion, and his sister would tell me, “Hey my brother wrestles, he’s a state champion, and his coach is right over there. Just go on over there, and I’ll introduce you to him. Just go up to him and tell him that you want to wrestle!”
So here I was, a snotty nosed 7th grader, I went up to the high school coach and told him who I was, and he shook my hand. I told him who I was and what I wanted to do, and that I wanted to try out for the team. I didn’t know JV or varsity, or anything like that, and of course he asked me how old I was, so I told him that I was 13. He then told me that I was a year too young, and that I had to be at least in the 8th grade. I think that he could tell that I was disappointed, so he told me, “I tell you what, if you show up for our practice, I’ll see how well you can handle our practice.” And let me tell you, those kids were tough, and this coach was tough. He was a Virginia Tech national champion and an All-American football linebacker for Virginia Tech, so he was a tough dude who took his wrestling seriously.
So, I go out there, and I got my ass whooped every day! *Both Laugh*. I was just a piece of meat for those guys, but I guess that he noticed that I kept coming back…
MB: You had heart.
MF: I guess… I just kept coming back. I’d keep showing up and the coach would ask me if I was going to practice that day, and I’d say, “Yes sir!” At that time, I weighed 145 pounds which was pretty big for a kid in the 7th grade, so he put me with that weight class with varsity guys, and high school guys, and I was only just starting jr. high. I would wrestle them every day, and by me getting my butt kicked every day it helped me, because I was learning the hard way. I couldn’t handle them, but I was learning because it wasn’t easy. I had gone out to the intramural wrestling team at the school that I was going to, and I beat all those guys easily. I beat all my fellow 7th graders like there was nothing to it. It wasn’t that I really knew what to do, I was just imitating what I had learned. I knew a half-nelson, I knew a switch, but it wasn’t any fun beating everyone on that intramural team, because there wasn’t any competition for me.
Mark in his young wrestling days…
Welcome to the first part of our 2nd interview, in our ongoing quest to fully shed some light on the history of MMA. This humble scribe recently had the pleasure of traveling to Virginia to meet with an incredibly gracious man, and wrestling legend, in the form of Mark Fleming. Mark is a unique person in the scope of our project, as he was the first, and practically the only, westerner to enter the UWF-I with a considerable wealth of wrestling experience, both from the professional standpoint (having traveled all over the United States within the NWA from 1983-1986 and having a run in NJPW in 1989) as well as having the benefit of being under the watchful tutelage of one of the greatest pro wrestlers of all time in the legendary, Lou Thesz. One of the refreshing things about him was that he always his own man and prided himself on showcasing professional wrestling in the best possible light, as a worthy endeavor with the focus being on wrestling instead of silly gimmicks and nonsense. He was kind enough to give me over 5 hours of his time, so this will be the first part of a multi-part series. We cover a lot of ground in this interview, and this should appeal to both fans of pro wrestling and MMA history. More chapters will follow in the future.
Fleming putting Kiyoshi Tamura in a STF
MB: Thank you for taking the time to do this interview. I think that one of the interesting things about talking to you is that you went into this (the UWF-I) having the most actual wrestling experience up to that point, especially on the professional side. Some of the guys before you, like Tom Burton and JT Southern, had a little bit of pro wrestling experience, but nowhere near the level that you did. You went into the UWF-I with considerable experience, especially as a protegé of Lou Thesz.
Of course, Billy Scott came in later with Billy Robinson about a year and a half after you debuted, but you were the first person to arrive to the UWF-I with some real and serious wrestling experience. Although, Pez Whatley was there for like a min..
MF: Yeah, for a couple of matches. Two or three.
MB: But he didn't look very good in there. *both laugh*.
MF: I'll tell you the truth, just the way I explained it to Lou (Thesz) it was like I had to learn how to wrestle all over again. It was a new style to me. I used to work out with Anjo (Yoji) in the dojo over there because it was new. Also, I didn't approve of the kicks either, and you know, Lou didn’t either. Also, they made me wear those shin guards and I told Lou that I didn’t want to wear these damn things, they don’t feel comfortable… but Lou said “Look. Let’s just play by their rules.” My first match over there I wrestled Takada at the Korakuen Hall, and I was going for pinfalls…and there was no pinfalls!! (Both laugh)
They sent me tapes before I went over there to watch, and I told Lou “Man this isn’t wrestling, this is kicking.” And he said, “I know it’s bullshit, but just go along with it.”
MB: Ok. We’ll get back to that, but no doubt, that’s some good stuff. I suppose that the first thing that I should ask you is what was your first exposure to wrestling as a kid, or what was your first memory of wrestling where you saw it and knew that it was something that you wanted to do?
MF: Professional wrestling, or amateur?
MB: Either way. Let’s go with professional wrestling.
MF: I saw it on tv when I was a kid, and I went to this school, I think it was in 6th grade and some of the other boys in my class were trading wrestling magazines, but I didn’t know what it was because my family were not wrestling fans, and they were saying stuff like, “Yeah man, this stuff is on TV…blah blah blah, and that I should watch it on Saturday” and I did. I started watching it, and I started to become interested in it, but I was interested in it for a different reason. Even back then, when I was in 6thgrade, I don’t know what it is, but me and my dad are really close and he was always with me during all the sports I did, and he told me that I was looking at this thing (pro wrestling) differently than others. At that young age I was looking at the holds, and how they were applied, and I was interested more in that, and how it was all done, rather than the angles that they were doing.
MB: So you were less interested in the theatrical side of it?
MF: Yeah, the kids would talk about who was going to beat up who, and all that, but I didn’t have much interest in all that. I was more interested in the bumps they were taking and the holds that they were doing, as that just fascinated me, and that’s weird, but it’s just the way it was for me. My brother’s best friend wrestled in high school, and I would talk to him, and he would tell me that I would have to try out for high school wrestling. By that time, I was in 7th grade, and I think I was 13 years old. He told me where to go to the high school and talk to the coach, his name and what he looked like. However, when I went there, I couldn’t get inside as the school was locked. Later on, I happened to be at a high school football game and one of my sister’s best friends brother wrestled. He was a state champion, and his sister would tell me, “Hey my brother wrestles, he’s a state champion, and his coach is right over there. Just go on over there, and I’ll introduce you to him. Just go up to him and tell him that you want to wrestle!”
So here I was, a snotty nosed 7th grader, I went up to the high school coach and told him who I was, and he shook my hand. I told him who I was and what I wanted to do, and that I wanted to try out for the team. I didn’t know JV or varsity, or anything like that, and of course he asked me how old I was, so I told him that I was 13. He then told me that I was a year too young, and that I had to be at least in the 8th grade. I think that he could tell that I was disappointed, so he told me, “I tell you what, if you show up for our practice, I’ll see how well you can handle our practice.” And let me tell you, those kids were tough, and this coach was tough. He was a Virginia Tech national champion and an All-American football linebacker for Virginia Tech, so he was a tough dude who took his wrestling seriously.
So, I go out there, and I got my ass whooped every day! *Both Laugh*. I was just a piece of meat for those guys, but I guess that he noticed that I kept coming back…
MB: You had heart.
MF: I guess… I just kept coming back. I’d keep showing up and the coach would ask me if I was going to practice that day, and I’d say, “Yes sir!” At that time, I weighed 145 pounds which was pretty big for a kid in the 7th grade, so he put me with that weight class with varsity guys, and high school guys, and I was only just starting jr. high. I would wrestle them every day, and by me getting my butt kicked every day it helped me, because I was learning the hard way. I couldn’t handle them, but I was learning because it wasn’t easy. I had gone out to the intramural wrestling team at the school that I was going to, and I beat all those guys easily. I beat all my fellow 7th graders like there was nothing to it. It wasn’t that I really knew what to do, I was just imitating what I had learned. I knew a half-nelson, I knew a switch, but it wasn’t any fun beating everyone on that intramural team, because there wasn’t any competition for me.
Mark in his young wrestling days…
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