International Kadyrov troops moving to the Ukrainian border.

[hitcher]

Would you say Russia won the Chechnyan war since Ramzan appears to be a Putin yes-man ?

Wait, how did Russia not win the war?

 

[MicroBrew]

Wait, how did Russia not win the war?

Many years ago I've read that Russians were slaughtered and left without defeating the rebels. Heard claims that Chechnya was a Russian graveyard.

 

[hitcher]

Many years ago I've read that Russians were slaughtered and left without defeating the rebels. Heard claims that Chechnya was a Russian graveyard.

I guess you can read all kinds of stuff in the internet.

 

[Cole train]

Many years ago I've read that Russians were slaughtered and left without defeating the rebels. Heard claims that Chechnya was a Russian graveyard.

The slaughter part is most likely about the first battle of grozny where russian convoys were getting destroyed inside city due to commanders not using their brains

Media censorship failed and russian tv was full of burning armor and dead soldiers

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

Many years ago I've read that Russians were slaughtered and left without defeating the rebels. Heard claims that Chechnya was a Russian graveyard.

In the first war. In the second they razed Grozny.

 

[milf_hunter]

 

[Fox by the Sea]

Many years ago I've read that Russians were slaughtered and left without defeating the rebels. Heard claims that Chechnya was a Russian graveyard.

during the first war there were occasions in which this shit happened. a lot of 1970s generals who gave no shit if 10 battalions would get wiped out would drunkenly give orders to attack through the most idiotic settings - narrow street, tank column, high buildings on each side. all the chechens had to do was blow up the first and last tank and then take potshots.

the second war was professionally led and it was an absolute massacre of the chechens. they had to spend the next 15 years hiding their 5 person caliphate in the mountains until they were killed one by one. people have this absurdly good impression of chechens. they're bums. if i had to choose a group to go to battle with, chechens would probably be dead last. i'd take 100 german bookkeepers before them.

 

[12ga.]

I agree. It is I think 1 weakness and I genuinely find and support the Russian states actions as being smart and tactiful. Stalin or Brezhnev would never have tolerated a Kadyrov


Ramzan Kadyrov keeps down true radical islam and doesnt fight against agents of Russia who are there snuffing out extremism and in return he gets a lot of autonomy as does indirect Dagestan. However, this state of affairs cant be preferred by hardline Russian nationalists in power or tacticians and would of never have been allowed in Soviet days. I imagine they would prefer to have a less religious leader in there like the ones from the Stan countries and Azeri who have all weakened Islam.

You can't exactly do what Stalin did today because Russia would become a international pariah. So Putin did next best thing. Co-opted a warlord who keeps Chechen oil Russian, and kills off extremism.

I read a story about an Chechen ISIS fighter in Syria, and the pro-salafi Turkish press guys is like, "bro why arnt you fighting for jihad in Chechnya" dudes all "if I go back Ramzam will kill my whole family so jihad is dead there for now"

 

[HindustaniKush]

Pretty obvious that he does. Kadyrov looks tough but he is nothing more than a vassal to Putin.
I could bet my life savings that he's monitored 24/7 by FSB and he along with his entire family can be disappeared if he doesn't tow the line.
What Putin did with Chechnya is absolutely masterful. Made a haven of radical villainy be a strong ally.
And in the case of war, nothing better than to unleash these dogs on another nation.

This is nothing more than something that happened countless times in history with a difficult tribe or region.
You integrate them in your Empire instead of annihilating them in annoying wars.
And you make them feel they are free, and indulge their warlike behaviour by putting them in the Army, etc.
In no time they are more loyal than most. All they need is to have their needs met.

It isnt ideal and it is a risk. Soviets would have turned them into nationalist agnostics or like azeris not actually religious in any real capacity like most uzbeks, kyrgz, turkmen etc. A lot of those guys drink alcohol even and have versions of Quran that the government only approves of. I would imagine Russian elite would prefer if Chechnya was like Tartastan or those states like azerbaijan

You can't exactly do what Stalin did today because Russia would become a international pariah. So Putin did next best thing. Co-opted a warlord who keeps Chechen oil Russian, and kills off extremism.

I read a story about an Chechen ISIS fighter in Syria, and the pro-salafi Turkish press guys is like, "bro why arnt you fighting for jihad in Chechnya" dudes all "if I go back Ramzam will kill my whole family so jihad is dead there for now"

True true. I just imagine a scenario where you remove Ramzan in a tactiful way and put someone else less religious, that this would be preferable to Russian elite. However, yeah considering you cant do what Stalin did it is good enough. The Stans and Azerbaijan are the way they are from Soviet legacy and the leaders they had who took over after were close to Kremlin

 

[moosaev]

Not Chechen troops!



My father in law is right now in the house that my wife grew up in, in the part of Ukraine that Russia wants to take the most, so I have more of a stake in any conflict there than anyone else on here has. I'm more concerned about raytheon hosting yet another away game than I am about Chechnya's army that don't even have matching uniforms.

The Chechens are tough fighters, they have Russia more trouble than Ukraine could any day of the week.

 

[moosaev]

I guess you can read all kinds of stuff in the internet.

Russia won based on sheer numbers and resources, but they got the shit kicked out of them in Chechnya. They only fully won once they were able to split the rebels and recruit half the rebels to kill and snitch on the other half. But Grozny in 94 was a Russian graveyard.

 

[Boxingfan998]

You can't exactly do what Stalin did today because Russia would become a international pariah.

China did the Uighurs thing and nobody truly gives a F about them.
As long as business is good, nobody cares. Same with Saudi Arabia human rights abuses.

 

[TheGreatA]

China did the Uighurs thing and nobody truly gives a F about them.
As long as business is good, nobody cares. Same with Saudi Arabia human rights abuses.

If Russia had focused its efforts more on making Europe completely energy-dependent on them, they would get away with a lot.

Investing in anti-nuclear movements in Europe would've done more for them than investing in better fighter jets or ballistic missiles.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

The Chechens are tough fighters, they have Russia more trouble than Ukraine could any day of the week.

Geography helps a lot. Ukraine is mostly flat and Russian tanks can just sweep right in.

 

[Boxingfan998]

If Russia had focused its efforts more on making Europe completely energy-dependent on them, they would get away with a lot. Investing in anti-nuclear movements in Europe would've done more for them than investing in better fighter jets or ballistic missiles.

Well to be honest, we already heavily depend on Russian gas.
For example, Finland and the Baltics import 100% of their gas from Russia and it would be pretty catastrophic if Russia cut it off.
Germany buys 40% of its gas from Russia.

Truth be told the Russians could not have done more.

 

[Strategery]

Well Kadyrov is a Putin puppet so...

...?

 

[Boxingfan998]

Many years ago I've read that Russians were slaughtered and left without defeating the rebels. Heard claims that Chechnya was a Russian graveyard.

This is some kind of Western fantasy.
Russian KIA (worst estimate): 2,000.
Chechens KIA: 16,000.
Chechen civilians were also routinely massacred by the Russians, the worst Chechen estimate is 1/4 of a million slaughtered civilians.

It was a disaster for Chechnya, though they undoubtedly fought well and killed as many Russians as they could.
There are mass graves of Chechens all over Chechnya.

 

[TheGreatA]

Well to be honest, we already heavily depend on Russian gas.
For example, Finland and the Baltics import 100% of their gas from Russia and it would be pretty catastrophic if Russia cut it off.
Germany buys 40% of its gas from Russia.

Truth be told the Russians could not have done more.

They could have done more, earlier. 1990's and even 2000's are basically lost time for the Russians.

This is some kind of Western fantasy.
Russian KIA (worst estimate): 2,000.
Chechens KIA: 16,000.
Chechen civilians were also routinely massacred by the Russians, the worst Chechen estimate is 1/4 of a million slaughtered civilians.

It was a disaster for Chechnya, though they undoubtedly fought well and killed as many Russians as they could.
There are mass graves of Chechens all over Chechnya.

By Russian standards that conflict was a minor skirmish. One day of Finland vs USSR saw more casualties than the entire war against Chechens. And even Finland vs USSR is seen as just a minor conflict by Russian standards.

 

[milenss]

Doesn't really matter if it is an Americanism, cause people who are reasonably fluent with English and exposed to Western media will know what it means.

Yes. It matters. As I've said we don't have this here in Europe, at least the part of Europe I live in.
It's an American thing only this "yes-man".
It looks like you have lots of yes men in US.

 

[LangfordBarrow]

So when are the democrats gonna suit up and go defend Ukraine?

I'm pretty sure it was a bipartisan group that drew up the possible sanctions they will put in place against Russia if they do invade. We won't send soldiers there, but if not for our and our allies pushback, the Russians would surely already have sent their troops in.