Judo within BJJ Harder???

[Uchi Mata]

I'm all for Judo, I've done it for most of my adult life, but wrestling is much easier to pick up and it's also what I make the basis for the BJJ takedown game I teach my students. I do teach shoulder and hip throws as well as foot sweeps and a few sacrifice throws, but I think the basis for a BJJ takedown game should be leg attacks. Why?

1. Safer. If you fail, you can almost always get to guard, and you're not giving up your back.
2. Faster to learn. Say what you will, 100% of people I've worked with can develop a workable double leg faster than a workable seio nage.
3. Work gi and no-gi. Yes, I know you can throw someone with a shoulder throw without a gi. But it's really really hard and a bad use of training time vs. just working more on your doubles and singles.
4. Controlled follow up. Unless (sometimes even if) you hit a Judo throw perfectly, it can be very hard to maintain control on the ground after the takedown. Not the case with leg attacks. And since BJJ is about taking someone down as a first step towards positional dominance (much like wrestling), it makes sense to emphasize the moves which more often lead to a really solid top control.

I do think Judo foot sweeps and reaping backward throws are very good for BJJ and I spend quite a lot of time on them, but the core of a good BJJ takedown game should be wrestling based. Or mid 80s Judo based if that's what you want to call it. Whatever. The semantics aren't important, teaching high % grappling moves is.

 

[Q mystic]

Btw, best advice I ever got on shooting takedowns is very simple: "If you can't touch the guy, don't shoot on him."

Shooting from a long distance requires great athleticism, but you shouldn't be shooting from a long distance anyways. That's what leads to getting sprawled on over and over again. Work to get inside and shoot the takedown from inside.

Exactly what I read from a Russian wrestling coach, claiming the US shoots from too far and that his guys don't shoot until they can touch.

Oh, of course, this Russian Oly wrestling coach had a 6th dan in judo. ...and claimed all their fighters froom judo and wrestling were prior youth sambo fighteers.lol

+1 throws.

 

[Q mystic]

The OP was asking if throws are harder to learn, and I'm saying yes because of their complexity. Even with black belts I could spot areas where the throw is just wrong. I'm sure I have plenty of areas to improve as well. And these are people who've done the throws years and years.

But you are right in that the judoka will feel overall as tough relatively versus another grappling of similar experience. I'm just saying that individual techniques are tougher and comprise of a bigger part of your repertoire.

Hi-comp black belts? It's crummy here but we know the 'belt' deal has always been an issue with judo.

Bjjs ground game seems more 'individual' than the judo game, imo. I'm not sure what you mean here.

 

[ThunderL1ps]

Stick with it. It will get better.

Are you doing judo in St.T, Q?

 

[Q mystic]

Stick with it. It will get better.

Are you doing judo in St.T, Q?

No, shortly after a judo club opened there(in London), I was forced to move. Now, the closest comp club is 75 mins away.

Umm..how do you know me?

Are you from Canadian Immigration?:icon_lol:

 

[Q mystic]

I'm all for Judo, I've done it for most of my adult life, but wrestling is much easier to pick up and it's also what I make the basis for the BJJ takedown game I teach my students. I do teach shoulder and hip throws as well as foot sweeps and a few sacrifice throws, but I think the basis for a BJJ takedown game should be leg attacks. Why?

1. Safer. If you fail, you can almost always get to guard, and you're not giving up your back.
2. Faster to learn. Say what you will, 100% of people I've worked with can develop a workable double leg faster than a workable seio nage.
3. Work gi and no-gi. Yes, I know you can throw someone with a shoulder throw without a gi. But it's really really hard and a bad use of training time vs. just working more on your doubles and singles.
4. Controlled follow up. Unless (sometimes even if) you hit a Judo throw perfectly, it can be very hard to maintain control on the ground after the takedown. Not the case with leg attacks. And since BJJ is about taking someone down as a first step towards positional dominance (much like wrestling), it makes sense to emphasize the moves which more often lead to a really solid top control.

I do think Judo foot sweeps and reaping backward throws are very good for BJJ and I spend quite a lot of time on them, but the core of a good BJJ takedown game should be wrestling based. Or mid 80s Judo based if that's what you want to call it. Whatever. The semantics aren't important, teaching high % grappling moves is.

haha. Sry Uchimata, I disagree with all of your points.

1. Maybe safer. If you learn to throw, before it takes the same time to develop a killer shot, you'll be fine at not having your back taken.

2. Faster to learn, eh? Vs who?lol Many can often bowl people over. A good seoinage is a provincial medalist, same as a good shot. No better no worse and both take the same time to learn. But you'll have a much quicker shot d than clinch d.

3. Same as above. If you have a shot then you'll be curveballed moreso in gi than my seoinage will be in nogi. A guy with a seoinage scores just fine in gi and nogi.

4. You'll land in side mount with a throw, not sure what you mean here. Throwers in wrestling land no better no worse than shooters.

Either way, again, we can break this down forever, I am just pretty confident that good throwers beat good shooters, in wrestling and across all sports. I think the many names of hip throws in judo makes it sound more complicated than it is so it's really just a thrower.

 

[Q mystic]

I'm all for Judo, I've done it for most of my adult life, but wrestling is much easier to pick up and it's also what I make the basis for the BJJ takedown game I teach my students. I do teach shoulder and hip throws as well as foot sweeps and a few sacrifice throws, but I think the basis for a BJJ takedown game should be leg attacks. Why?

1. Safer. If you fail, you can almost always get to guard, and you're not giving up your back.
2. Faster to learn. Say what you will, 100% of people I've worked with can develop a workable double leg faster than a workable seio nage.
3. Work gi and no-gi. Yes, I know you can throw someone with a shoulder throw without a gi. But it's really really hard and a bad use of training time vs. just working more on your doubles and singles.
4. Controlled follow up. Unless (sometimes even if) you hit a Judo throw perfectly, it can be very hard to maintain control on the ground after the takedown. Not the case with leg attacks. And since BJJ is about taking someone down as a first step towards positional dominance (much like wrestling), it makes sense to emphasize the moves which more often lead to a really solid top control.

I do think Judo foot sweeps and reaping backward throws are very good for BJJ and I spend quite a lot of time on them, but the core of a good BJJ takedown game should be wrestling based. Or mid 80s Judo based if that's what you want to call it. Whatever. The semantics aren't important, teaching high % grappling moves is.

If you are going to just teach throws and focus on shots, why even bother with the throws? Reminds me of being taught the shot..lol

One other thing, when it comes to bjj, doubles seem like they would pan out well as it seems it isn't entirely uncommon for a bjjer to simply be happy for the easy td to fight off his back, which he will do well. I mean, pulling guard might not be far from some of the doubles you guys are pulling off.lol Unless, you are very physical and have been hitting shots on the comp wrestling scene for the last 5 years.lol

Honestly, with your concept of takedown and love of old school judo newaza, it's strange you love judo. Imo, judo has only gotten much harder to do, and that's good. I don't do it. I'm too lazy.lol. But do think I see where it has.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

haha. Sry Uchimata, I disagree with all of your points.

1. Maybe safer. If you learn to throw, before it takes the same time to develop a killer shot, you'll be fine at not having your back taken.

2. Faster to learn, eh? Vs who?lol Many can often bowl people over. A good seoinage is a provincial medalist, same as a good shot. No better no worse and both take the same time to learn. But you'll have a much quicker shot d than clinch d.

3. Same as above. If you have a shot then you'll be curveballed moreso in gi than my seoinage will be in nogi. A guy with a seoinage scores just fine in gi and nogi.

4. You'll land in side mount with a throw, not sure what you mean here. Throwers in wrestling land no better no worse than shooters.

Either way, again, we can break this down forever, I am just pretty confident that good throwers beat good shooters, in wrestling and across all sports. I think the many names of hip throws in judo makes it sound more complicated than it is so it's really just a thrower.

Wont get in much of this, but 4. is the most important point... in mma or bjj, you are doing it on softmats, so the throw wont cause significant damange, but it gives a way bigger opportunity for the other guy to scramble or reguard, you are not glue to the person, than a double leg, where the impact is minimun, but you are glue to your opponent the whole time...

a double leg, on soft surface is way more efficient than a throw.

3. a double leg is way easier to learn than seinage, hell the double leg or tackle is in the adn of the human being, people with zero experience in grappling can do a double (as horrific this one can be), seionage? come on...

 

[Uchi Mata]

haha. Sry Uchimata, I disagree with all of your points.

1. Maybe safer. If you learn to throw, before it takes the same time to develop a killer shot, you'll be fine at not having your back taken.

2. Faster to learn, eh? Vs who?lol Many can often bowl people over. A good seoinage is a provincial medalist, same as a good shot. No better no worse and both take the same time to learn. But you'll have a much quicker shot d than clinch d.

3. Same as above. If you have a shot then you'll be curveballed moreso in gi than my seoinage will be in nogi. A guy with a seoinage scores just fine in gi and nogi.

4. You'll land in side mount with a throw, not sure what you mean here. Throwers in wrestling land no better no worse than shooters.

Either way, again, we can break this down forever, I am just pretty confident that good throwers beat good shooters, in wrestling and across all sports. I think the many names of hip throws in judo makes it sound more complicated than it is so it's really just a thrower.

I'm not going to argue point by point because I think we've just had different experiences or just simply disagree, but I will say on the last point that you only land in side mount if you pull the throw off perfectly. I've watched hundreds if not thousands of hours of high level Judo, and the most common finish is a roll through, not ending in a dominant position like side control. I've seen the same in BJJ.

Do you compete in BJJ, or just Judo out of curiosity?

 

[Q mystic]

Wont get in much of this, but 4. is the most important point... in mma or bjj, you are doing it on softmats, so the throw wont cause significant damange, but it gives a way bigger opportunity for the other guy to scramble or reguard, you are not glue to the person, than a double leg, where the impact is minimun, but you are glue to your opponent the whole time...

a double leg, on soft surface is way more efficient than a throw.

3. a double leg is way easier to learn than seinage, hell the double leg or tackle is in the adn of the human being, people with zero experience in grappling can do a double (as horrific this one can be), seionage? come on...

There's no reason not to get into it Rage. I am a good guy and I know you guys are too. We all know that each sport has their killers, so we all know this is all simply chat.lol

I don't understand this. Ok, I know there is no significant damage done. I have buried (I mean sweet seoinages) guys in fights in parking lots and sidewalkst for no significant damage. Being such a good thrower, I do know how to make them land too, tho. What they have given me was control. Even my failed throws have given me plenty control similar to a failed shot.

So, when you fight tuff judoka, do you not see control here even with failed or clean attempts? Cuz I do. A double often will score and In guard. I can appreciate that. But my failed throw attempt will still score me a similar scramble to a better position, and still most likely side control.

Honestly, here's the key, you guys just haven't fought many judoka on the same level of wrestlers. Even Canada here is equal in the world for judo and wrestling. Really, really tuff for 30 mil, lol. I have fought many, many more tuff wrestlers outside of judo comp than I have judoka. It's pretty huge. Actually, you can include judo comp..lol

 

[Q mystic]

Here's my bet Rage.

If you were to work shots with plenty quality people in a comp fashion OR were to also work throws with similar stats, you'd be a thrower, just like that, and with your shot d, that does just come, you'd beat shooter Rage.lol.

Done and done.

For the time it takes, the shooter will have a much smaller game than the thrower. The thrower will stand you up, trip up and/or chuck you. Shots have always been allowed in gi judo. Welcomed. I know elite wrestlers that comped in judo and they didn't do beans with them. 2 points in bjj, why even bother with judo, or wrestling? I wouldn't.

 

[Rod1]

Wont get in much of this, but 4. is the most important point... in mma or bjj, you are doing it on softmats, so the throw wont cause significant damange, but it gives a way bigger opportunity for the other guy to scramble or reguard, you are not glue to the person, than a double leg, where the impact is minimun, but you are glue to your opponent the whole time...

a double leg, on soft surface is way more efficient than a throw.

3. a double leg is way easier to learn than seinage, hell the double leg or tackle is in the adn of the human being, people with zero experience in grappling can do a double (as horrific this one can be), seionage? come on...

Gi throws, no-gi double legs

 

[DiegoDiegerson]

At how many hours/week training? Typically, judo is 2-3 times/week at 1.5-2 hrs training. Average that at 5hrs/wk compared to wrestling which is 10-12 or bjj which typically runs, as a good business, with say 8-12/wk.

Take either 3 at 300+ hours across the board (more tighter the hours, the better) and you'd see there is no learning curve issue.

How many people are training BJJ 8-12 hours a week though? For wrestling, yeah, given that generally it's going to be high school and university teams where people have to practice that much to be competitive. But a hobbyist jiujitiero or however one spells it is probably going to spend as much time doing BJJ as a hobbyist judoka spends doing judo.

I would say, from my experience at least, that within judo, spending more time doing tachiwaza than newaza, I felt more comfortable in newaza than tachiwaza even before I started doing BJJ.

 

[SFCFighter]

high school and college teams are not allowed to train wrestling twice a day

they are regulated and have 5 practices a week

 

[smart.feller]

This has diverted way off of the original course, but I'd just like to chime in that wrestlers have much more than single and double leg takedowns at their disposal. Low singles, sweep singles, ankle picks, fireman's carry, trips, high crotch, duck unders, arm drags, and a variety of throws (list in not all inclusive)...To get an high application level knowledge of the many techniques takes just as many years as it would to learn more than a judo throw or two. I can teach someone to blast a double just as quickly as I can teach them to set up and execute an osoto gari.

Now back to the original thread...throwing techniques can seem more time intensive to learn because if they fail you leave yourself very vulnerable to counters...it isn't "easy" to hit an arm bar from the guard, but if that fails you can quickly reguard...in my opinion, it's not that a throw is more technical than a submission, it's that submissions are more easily chained from a failed attempt to the next than throws are, especially in the beginning phases.

 

[QingTian]

IMO the big difference in learning curve is because of learning how to use the gi, how your opponent grabs your gi, and how you can move differently because of gi. None of it is natural or intuitive.

Often when I teach a throw to a beginner, I tell him to try the throw no-gi, because the concept would be immediately obvious.

 

[ctm1708]

Thanks again for the advice guys. I feel bad though because I have been lurking at this site for a while and have read a lot of wrestling vs judo threads. I was not trying to start this, just wanted to know if other people found the ground work easier to learn than throws in the beginning. I am lucky in that my school teaches Judo and wrestling takedowns but the emphasis is on the BJJ groundwork.