Judo within BJJ Harder???

[Leverage]

Something that could be playing a big hand in this is you're sparring partner.

I feel most Judoka would agree that practicing a static throw on a Judo beginner is actually much harder than practicing a static throw on an experienced judoka because the experienced are much, much more comfortable with being thrown. Beginners tend to tense up, back up & get rigid whilst they're in the process of being thrown whereas good ukes should relax and float over a little for beginners so it doesn't feel so difficult for them. Not jumping over per say, but providing as little resistance as they can to the throw so the thrower can develop a feel for the hip placement etc.

I also echo what others have mentioned about the learning curves etc but it's also worth seeing how comfortable your partner is with being thrown and whether that's playing a part.

Regardless, keep practicing and remember, get you're hip lower than his when you throw.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

judo is a pussy sport...

bjj is way harder (j/k)

I think you can get away with sloopy techinque in bjj (specially at white belt level) judo takes more time to learn it, its harder I think.

 

[metallifan3091]

^This is a great point that hasn't been mentioned. A lot of guys are never taught how to be a proper uke, and they end up inadvertently making things a lot harder for you as tori because they are stiff arming and sitting down, which makes kuzushi and entry for forward throws difficult.

 

[QingTian]

This gets thrown out a lot, but i think it has more to do with how people are taught. If you do everything correctly you should be able to perform throws fairly easily. Applying them live during randori is another thing.

Being taught poorly just compounds the problem... but throws definitely are mechanically more complicated than subs, and you have to timing it right and do it at speed too.

The proof is easy: take a good Judoka, and ask him to do the throw on the other side. He won't be able to do it anywhere near as well as his good side.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Being taught poorly just compounds the problem... but throws definitely are mechanically more complicated than subs, and you have to timing it right and do it at speed too.

The proof is easy: take a good Judoka, and ask him to do the throw on the other side. He won't be able to do it anywhere near as well as his good side.

the same happen with submissions too...

 

[QingTian]

the same happen with submissions too...

Well, all things have a degree of difference based on side, even something simple as brushing your teeth.

The difference for throws is extreme because of the complexity. And it's not just the coordination - you will lack the muscle development to do the other side, unless it's for simpler throws. It's enough of a difference where for most people there is no point in trying to learn both sides.

 

[killakoy]

I wouldn't get discouraged as stand-up is more of an art form. I'm a Judo BB and have severely neglected my left side throws. I have some attacks from my left since you need options given the scenario presented, but my throws from this side are extremely poor.

So in summary, I know exactly where my body needs to be and how it needs to move in my mind. Getting my body to actually do it is something entirely different... only practice and repetition will make this better. I don't think these movements are intuitive and generally don't come naturally.

 

[Randmcnally]

I personally hate but love to master both wrestling and judo takedowns. It's more physically demanding on the body. I can train a whole month straight with ground work and do not feel the toll in my body but a week's worth of take downs is nightmare physically. My body just breaks down from a lot of body tossing both as the person throwing and being thrown.

Though I believe this is a little bit normal for everyone who started with BJJ first. If I am not mistaken, jeff glover said in the rolled up episode that his weakness is judo

 

[BJJ_Rage]

I personally hate but love to master both wrestling and judo takedowns. It's more physically demanding on the body. I can train a whole month straight with ground work and do not feel the toll in my body but a week's worth of take downs is nightmare physically. My body just breaks down from a lot of body tossing both as the person throwing and being thrown.

Though I believe this is a little bit normal for everyone who started with BJJ first. If I am not mistaken, jeff glover said in the rolled up episode that his weakness is judo

We are doing a Luta livre seminar now, and we are focusing on tds, 2 classes and my back hurts and feel damn tired. Yesterday after about 1hour training firemans carry, I had to say, I'm too old for this shit...

 

[Rod1]

the same happen with submissions too...

You can still do them, maybe not as proficiently but you can.

 

[SFCFighter]

seems like everyone thinks throws are hard.. i agree, they are hard and thats why they get more points in judo/wrestling than other moves

seems strange that judokas jump in to recommend throws as the go-to takedown to learn for a beginner in 99% of takedown threads

 

[zegrapplez]

the learning curve in Judo seems steeper to me in retrospect. it might be 6 months or 18 months before you legitimately throw someone, even harder with defensive posture and less gripping restrictions without Judo rules to force more engagement on the feet.

 

[laidbackjudoka]

Havent read the rest of the thread but in reponse to TS I think the ground is alot more technical and will take alot of time to learn techniques for, whereas when standing the time consuming part will be simply getting a feel for things, like opponents balance, grips etc. and is not necessarily something you can learn by drilling but more by actually fighting.

Not taking anything away from either aspects of grappling and to suggest that you can fight well on the ground without rolling is absurd, just think balance and timings of throws are something you learn more by experience more than ne waza.

 

[Q mystic]

the learning curve in Judo seems steeper to me in retrospect. it might be 6 months or 18 months before you legitimately throw someone, even harder with defensive posture and less gripping restrictions without Judo rules to force more engagement on the feet.

At how many hours/week training? Typically, judo is 2-3 times/week at 1.5-2 hrs training. Average that at 5hrs/wk compared to wrestling which is 10-12 or bjj which typically runs, as a good business, with say 8-12/wk.

Take either 3 at 300+ hours across the board (more tighter the hours, the better) and you'd see there is no learning curve issue.

 

[QingTian]

At how many hours/week training? Typically, judo is 2-3 times/week at 1.5-2 hrs training. Average that at 5hrs/wk compared to wrestling which is 10-12 or bjj which typically runs, as a good business, with say 8-12/wk.

Take either 3 at 300+ hours across the board (more tighter the hours, the better) and you'd see there is no learning curve issue.

But what's your metric besides hours? By the time you reach shodan you probably only have 2-3 good throws, whereas by the time you reach purple belt you are a very well rounded ground fighter. Both are around 2000 mat hours I believe.

The question isn't whether Judo in general is harder but whether individually throws are harder to learn. In that sense, yes, because you end up with less techniques learned at each level. But you only need a handful of throws to cover most situations.

 

[Zankou]

At how many hours/week training? Typically, judo is 2-3 times/week at 1.5-2 hrs training. Average that at 5hrs/wk compared to wrestling which is 10-12 or bjj which typically runs, as a good business, with say 8-12/wk.

Take either 3 at 300+ hours across the board (more tighter the hours, the better) and you'd see there is no learning curve issue.

Honestly I've only done a handful of wrestling practices, and I've still been able to take down not just BJJ guys but also guys with decent wrestling and judo backgrounds.

IMO it just isn't that hard to learn a double or single leg. The initial setup is the hard part. If you can get in close and get past the arms, you just drive on through. It's intuitive, at least for a BJJ player. If you are reasonably athletic, you can be very effective with takedowns with comparatively little training. Call it the "GSP Effect."

Contrast that with judo, I can't throw anybody to save my life. After about 2 years more training, maybe I'll have a decently powered throw.

 

[Q mystic]

But what's your metric besides hours? By the time you reach shodan you probably only have 2-3 good throws, whereas by the time you reach purple belt you are a very well rounded ground fighter. Both are around 2000 mat hours I believe.

The question isn't whether Judo in general is harder but whether individually throws are harder to learn. In that sense, yes, because you end up with less techniques learned at each level. But you only need a handful of throws to cover most situations.

I don't understand what you are saying, Qing. If say after 600 hours judo, at the physical level used by wrestlers and bjjers, you'll be a helluva well-rounded judo fighter. More than defined by 2-3 throws. You'll also be a good scrambler, with some quick go-to subs and incredible top control.

I don't believe this equality deal at 2000 hrs. I am talking comp judo vs comp bjj. A young athletic comp judoka will be a blue in around 300 hrs. Maybe 600 to make black.

I sometimes think that you guys are comparing against pretty tuff bjjer and wrestlers.

 

[Zankou]

Btw, best advice I ever got on shooting takedowns is very simple: "If you can't touch the guy, don't shoot on him."

Shooting from a long distance requires great athleticism, but you shouldn't be shooting from a long distance anyways. That's what leads to getting sprawled on over and over again. Work to get inside and shoot the takedown from inside.

 

[Q mystic]

Honestly I've only done a handful of wrestling practices, and I've still been able to take down not just BJJ guys but also guys with decent wrestling and judo backgrounds.

IMO it just isn't that hard to learn a double or single leg. The initial setup is the hard part. If you can get in close and get past the arms, you just drive on through. It's intuitive, at least for a BJJ player. If you are reasonably athletic, you can be very effective with takedowns with comparatively little training. Call it the "GSP Effect."

Contrast that with judo, I can't throw anybody to save my life. After about 2 years more training, maybe I'll have a decently powered throw.

Okay. But, I've been to plenty bjj clubs, some good ones, and their level of throw practice on every given night resembles nothing like their shot practice. In wrestling, the shot to throw drills were 10:1.

When younger, I saw comp judo blue and brown belts (300-400 hrs) enter wrestling fighting 500+ hrs wrestlers where they would get smoked by the shot early but by end of their 1st season, were throwers. Because, imo, they never spent anytime in judo to develop a shot and initially had to develop shot d in wrestling.

 

[QingTian]

I don't understand what you are saying, Qing. If say after 600 hours judo, at the physical level used by wrestlers and bjjers, you'll be a helluva well-rounded judo fighter. More than defined by 2-3 throws. You'll also be a good scrambler, with some quick go-to subs and incredible top control.

I don't believe this equality deal at 2000 hrs. I am talking comp judo vs comp bjj. A young athletic comp judoka will be a blue in around 300 hrs. Maybe 600 to make black.

I sometimes think that you guys are comparing against pretty tuff bjjer and wrestlers.

The OP was asking if throws are harder to learn, and I'm saying yes because of their complexity. Even with black belts I could spot areas where the throw is just wrong. I'm sure I have plenty of areas to improve as well. And these are people who've done the throws years and years.

But you are right in that the judoka will feel overall as tough relatively versus another grappling of similar experience. I'm just saying that individual techniques are tougher and comprise of a bigger part of your repertoire.