Judo vs wrestling.

[alexsarmin]

But why aren't even Greco Romans as good at throwing?

Greco have a more limited number of throws due to the rules. The same throws are practiced alot by judokas aswell so they have no advantage there. But they are harder to upper body throw. Against a greco guy i would go for leg attack only as they are really vunerable to that. They are not used to it. They expect a shot but not trips like ouchi gari, osoto, kosoto gari etc...

 

[Vegeta]

Judo>wrestling in a real fight, wrestling>Judo in MMA.

This

 

[alexsarmin]

Btw, does someone starting Judo today up to Black belt know anything about leg takedowns? Will they get taken down like a kid in freestyle rules by a freestyle wrestlers? Is it still trained even though it's taken out of competition?

I sparred against a good judo black belt. I am sure they most likely know how to Leg grab but won't do it and don't train it so much or anything at all. But since judokas balance, hips and distance control is good it is hard to takedown since they defend with hands, hips and sprawl back with legs. I myself don't do so many leg grabs in no gi because i need to use more energy then doing leg trips/sweeps

 

[Lonewolfmcquade]

Greco have a more limited number of throws due to the rules. The same throws are practiced alot by judokas aswell so they have no advantage there. But they are harder to upper body throw. Against a greco guy i would go for leg attack only as they are really vunerable to that. They are not used to it. They expect a shot but not trips like ouchi gari, osoto, kosoto gari etc...

Aren't the throws different since they don't use each others clothing?

 

[alexsarmin]

Aren't the throws different since they don't use each others clothing?

no, you can still do the most effective judo throws without gi by using overhook,underhook,collar tie, ippon seoi grip,russian two on one,head and arm and etc...
I find it easier to throw without gi. My favorite is overhook and underhook for throwing

 

[Deleted member 110072]

The real issue with Rousey was the way she as fighting vs Holm. She was almost the total opposite of someone like Fedor in his prime, he often used his striking to close the distance and get the clinch in a fashion that could catch opponents off balance. She was almost purely looking for the KO vs Holm, loading up on punchs making it much easier for Holly to avoid the clinch...

Rousey did still get Holm down of course and did actually threaten with an armbar.

 

[ImNotMirsadBektic]

I sparred against a good judo black belt. I am sure they most likely know how to Leg grab but won't do it and don't train it so much or anything at all. But since judokas balance, hips and distance control is good it is hard to takedown since they defend with hands, hips and sprawl back with legs. I myself don't do so many leg grabs in no gi because i need to use more energy then doing leg trips/sweeps

I took down a brown belt Judoka from Latvia when he once crosstrained BJJ in our gym. Mind you, I have no wrestling history and had like maybe 2 No Gi grappling/wrestling classes at that point. Judoka's have terrible TDD against singles and doubles. Judo is very effective, but only when you supplement it for your wrestling game (like Khabib does).

 

[ImNotMirsadBektic]

This

Nope, a suplex will put you away as bad as the more brutal Judo throws. Wrestling is more effective in both the street and MMA as long as you don't shoot for singles/doubles on a guy with friends around him lol. Mind you, I'm from the Netherlands where Judo is very popular and wrestling is non existent. No bias here.

 

[alexsarmin]

I took down a brown belt Judoka from Latvia when he once crosstrained BJJ in our gym. Mind you, I have no wrestling history and had like maybe 2 No Gi grappling/wrestling classes at that point. Judoka's have terrible TDD against singles and doubles. Judo is very effective, but only when you supplement it for your wrestling game (like Khabib does).

There are alot of people in judo who got there belts as kids or went to a bad club and got belts without earning it. I am comparing with people who compete/sparr often of equal skill. I sparr mostly against judokas,wrestlers and bjj without gi.

It's really hard to takedown a judoka with leg grabs, check out the video with frank chamizo vs basile. I sparr frequently against freestyle wrestlers. I know they will go for single and double leg so i prepare for it. They know that i want the clinch and they try to not get in the clinch and shot from outside.But because they shot from the outside it gives me time to sprawl. The match is usually 50/50 can get either way. But so far i have been more succesful leg tripping and throwing then they have been able to single/double leg me.

Suplex and pickups is also in judo. We call it ura nage.

 

[karatefoo]

Judo allowed leg grab while Ronda learned and competed.

Perhaps it just wasn't her thing.

She was very efficient with leg trips though which doesn't take much energy. See her fight with Sarah D'Alelio and Miesha Tate 1 and 2.

 

[Lonewolfmcquade]

I took down a brown belt Judoka from Latvia when he once crosstrained BJJ in our gym. Mind you, I have no wrestling history and had like maybe 2 No Gi grappling/wrestling classes at that point. Judoka's have terrible TDD against singles and doubles. Judo is very effective, but only when you supplement it for your wrestling game (like Khabib does).

So leg takedowns are banned in every Judo comp these days, not just Olympics?

 

[kuroro]

Khabib said Judo is better so there you go.

 

[pamirec]

Trigg loves getting choked.

In a pure Wrestling vs Judo match, I give the edge to the judoka, as Judo has subs. In MMA no doubt a fighter with a wrestling background would do better.

 

[Hotora86]

someone posted a thread about the downfall of ronda and it got me thinking about the differences between judo and wrestling takedowns\throws. i think judo really excels when you have someone trying to push forward into the clinch to dirty box or wrestle, but falls apart a bit when you have someone the is purely focused on denying the clinch and staying on the outside to strike.
all it takes is a couple of knees and then push away, because upper body throws take a bit more to set up than leg takedowns. the advantage judo throws have if performed correctly, is they take less energy and have great impact. i think it has a bit to do with judo being a more defensive art by nature.

Sambo > both since it incorporates TDs from both + subs

 

[Deleted member 110072]

I would say COleman/Fedor 1 is often shown to be an example of wrestling being more effective as well when in reality what you seeing is Fedor being willing to be aggressive with his standup because he doesnt fear being taken down by Mark and of course is shown to be correct in that. In the second fight in the US were I suspect he was more aware of top control being scored more highly perhaps didnt want to shown "weakness" he shut Coleman down very effectively,

I think you see the same with Hendo as well, he often got taken down because he was focused on throwing aggressive standup, again probably beliveing he didnt have a great deal to fear from takedowns although with more questionable results than Fedor during his prime.

 

[alexsarmin]

So leg takedowns are banned in every Judo comp these days, not just Olympics?

yes except for freestyle judo. All use the olympic rules. But in our judo club we sometimes fight with no gi and sometimes we do sparring with leg takedowns allowed aswell.

 

[Deleted member 449757]

I guess the most significant conceptual difference is that Judo throws are particularly refined towards a high impact landing utilizing kuzushi while wrestling takedowns prioritize maximizing your chances of actually managing to take down your opponent with complete control.

 

[alexsarmin]

I guess the most significant conceptual difference is that Judo throws are particularly refined towards a high impact landing utilizing kuzushi while wrestling takedowns prioritize maximizing your chances of actually managing to take down your opponent with complete control.

The biggest difference is in Judo the whole ruleset is about throwing/tripping/sweeping the person so that he lands on the side or on the back. Whats happens afterwards doesn´t matter as much. While wrestling you can score if the person lands on his knees and you take his back, or if you pushout. Since there is a point system you have to also control and follow the person on the mat after the takedown in order to turn him and continue to get points for turns.

 

[seiryoku zen'yo]

Nope, a suplex will put you away as bad as the more brutal Judo throws. Wrestling is more effective in both the street and MMA as long as you don't shoot for singles/doubles on a guy with friends around him lol. Mind you, I'm from the Netherlands where Judo is very popular and wrestling is non existent. No bias here.

No single/double in street, then we rather train Judo

 

[Greyscale]

Sambo and Judo are heavily based around gi. That certainly don't help in MMA. However, if a clueless wrestler knowing nothing about submissions faces a Sambo or Judo grappler in MMA, he most likely will be submitted after first takedown like Coleman or Randleman.