Judo Belt Progression

[JudokaUK]

Nice to see you posting. Your threads are awesome.

Cheers.

From my experience, unless you're at bath uni or something then the judo clubs tend to be a lower level than at hobbyist clubs.

Out of a club of probably 40-50 people it's basically noob practise day in randori for me at the uni.

You're not wrong. Most uni clubs are run by brown belts or 18 year old first dans and so suffer from shit instructrion. My uni club was run by a 25 yr old 2nd dan and most of the coaching was done at the nearest city club, which was run by former international players and other high quality coaches.

My point was that quality of coacching and practice regularity are key.

BJJ currently has a much higher coaching quality than Judo in the UK.

 

[Judo Thai Boxer]

Cheers.


You're not wrong. Most uni clubs are run by brown belts or 18 year old first dans and so suffer from shit instructrion. My uni club was run by a 25 yr old 2nd dan and most of the coaching was done at the nearest city club, which was run by former international players and other high quality coaches.

My point was that quality of coacching and practice regularity are key.

BJJ currently has a much higher coaching quality than Judo in the UK.

I didn't mean the quality of the coaching was bad at mine, the instructor's great. He has his level 3 and teaches the area training sessions.

But the standard of training partners isn't great tbh. I use it to practise my worse throws and just to get some extra training in.

Not that I disagree with you overall though but the two university clubs in my area are both solid coaches.

 

[QingTian]

Outside of certain metro areas, US Judo instruction can be pretty bad too. The question is, what is BJJ doing right that teaching standards is more uniform?

 

[Kbits]

Aren't we still in the first generation of Bjj instructors - most of who (a) are Brazilian and/or (b) were trained in the Brazilian way (focus on sparring/MMA/combat)?

Bjj hasn't been watered down by 60 or 70 yrs of hobbists yet...wait a while....

 

[lechien]

Aren't we still in the first generation of Bjj instructors - most of who (a) are Brazilian and/or (b) were trained in the Brazilian way (focus on sparring/MMA/combat)?

Bjj hasn't been watered down by 60 or 70 yrs of hobbists yet...wait a while....

Are you suggesting that Judo has been watered down by 60 or 70 years of hobbists?

 

[Kbits]

Well, yes. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the most common type of judo club the not-for-profit, hobbyists, I-do-this-for-fun club? Sometimes those kinds of places don't even do nagekomi, let alone randori. ( BTDT @ PCYC clubs). Promotion is based on time in service, kata etc rather than ability and coaching nouse

If that's the culture ...then that's what gets passed onto the next generation of instructors.

 

[Kbits]

I guess what I'm saying is that by removing hard training, we eventually end up lowering coaching standards for future generations. There's something to be said about knowing it in your bones vs knowing it in theory.

 

[Franklegit]

Well, yes. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the most common type of judo club the not-for-profit, hobbyists, I-do-this-for-fun club? Sometimes those kinds of places don't even do nagekomi, let alone randori. ( BTDT @ PCYC clubs). Promotion is based on time in service, kata etc rather than ability and coaching nouse

If that's the culture ...then that's what gets passed onto the next generation of instructors.

I don't think you know what you're talking about bud. Randori and the application of proven, effective techniques is the essence of Judo training. That's why many consider Judo a combat sport like MT/BJJ/Boxing rather than some "martial hobby" like karate/tkd.

For example, my club runs under the "non-profit" business model and we've dished out multiple provincial team members, national champions, international competitors.

 

[RJ Green]

Ahh damn, I'd better return my dan grade certificate, I got mine in under 2 years.

But seriously, I think the big pieces missing here are how much actual mat time you spend depending on what stage in life you're at and quaiity of instruction.

If, like me, you restarted Judo at university you had enough free time to train 4-5 times per week for a year, which is probably the same amount of time as someone who trains 1-2 times per week for a couple of years. And you were lucky enough to have really good coaches and access to good quality adult training partners. This makes a world of difference from having unskillful tug arounds with 40 year old orange belts, which is what most adult beginners do.

This is also the big gap between Judo and BJJ, BJJ has lots of high quality coaches and mats full of good quality adult training partners.

Judo is awash with appalingly poor coaches and very low quality adult training partners.

Unless there's a very radical change in how Judo is coached and trained in the Anglophone world BJJ will totally eclipse it, when it comes to good coaches producing good adult practitioners in the next few years, let alone decades.

 

[Zankou]

Outside of certain metro areas, US Judo instruction can be pretty bad too. The question is, what is BJJ doing right that teaching standards is more uniform?

BJJ students pay way more money, allowing them to be much more selective, and teaching is done on a professional basis.

Unlike shodans (who are all over the map), BJJ black belts are consistently quite knowledgeable and near-professional caliber at newaza.

BJJ is also a lot easier to teach from a technical and training perspective. So if you are good at BJJ, it's hard to teach it badly unless you are really incompetent.

 

[Uchi Mata]

BJJ students pay way more money, allowing them to be much more selective, and teaching is done on a professional basis.

Unlike shodans (who are all over the map), BJJ black belts are consistently quite knowledgeable and near-professional caliber at newaza.

BJJ is also a lot easier to teach from a technical and training perspective. So if you are good at BJJ, it's hard to teach it badly unless you are really incompetent.

Agreed. Plus, a lot of Judoka have significant competition success without actually knowing that much about the full range of techniques. For example, if you have a seio nage specialist who has never really done much uchi mata, they're not going to have much insight into how to develop an effective uchi mata even if they destroy people with their seio nage. They might not even know that many ways of setting up and throwing with seio nage outside those that work for them. I've found that almost all BJJ black belts can instruct in most positions, even if it's not something they play frequently. Not sure why that is, other than you can get away with a much narrower technical repertoire in Judo competition than BJJ, and BJJ guys seem to change their games up more than Judoka. My teacher (and myself) will go through phases where he'll play a lot of DLR, then spider, then back to his bread and butter closed, etc, whereas I've never had a Judo instructor who played anything other than his A game with brown and black belts. Perhaps because it takes so long to develop a single throw in Judo to the point where you can use it in competition people tend not to vary. Who knows? But I think that's a big part of why Judo instruction tends to be worse, because many people are only really qualified to teach their own game.

 

[lechien]

Well, yes. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the most common type of judo club the not-for-profit, hobbyists, I-do-this-for-fun club? Sometimes those kinds of places don't even do nagekomi, let alone randori. ( BTDT @ PCYC clubs). Promotion is based on time in service, kata etc rather than ability and coaching nouse

If that's the culture ...then that's what gets passed onto the next generation of instructors.

Let me see.
In New Zealand, you need to defeat 10 bb in competition to earn your bb.
How can you earn your bb without competition?
Batsugun rules still applies in my club run by hobbiests.
Win 3 fight in a run and earn your next belt. Kyu rank that is.

 

[Judo Thai Boxer]

Agreed. Plus, a lot of Judoka have significant competition success without actually knowing that much about the full range of techniques. For example, if you have a seio nage specialist who has never really done much uchi mata, they're not going to have much insight into how to develop an effective uchi mata even if they destroy people with their seio nage. They might not even know that many ways of setting up and throwing with seio nage outside those that work for them. I've found that almost all BJJ black belts can instruct in most positions, even if it's not something they play frequently. Not sure why that is, other than you can get away with a much narrower technical repertoire in Judo competition than BJJ, and BJJ guys seem to change their games up more than Judoka. My teacher (and myself) will go through phases where he'll play a lot of DLR, then spider, then back to his bread and butter closed, etc, whereas I've never had a Judo instructor who played anything other than his A game with brown and black belts. Perhaps because it takes so long to develop a single throw in Judo to the point where you can use it in competition people tend not to vary. Who knows? But I think that's a big part of why Judo instruction tends to be worse, because many people are only really qualified to teach their own game.

I agree with you to an extent, although I don't think you need to be extremely proficient at a throw to teach it. You can still understand the mechanics of a throw and perform it on a compliant uke without being able to do it in competition.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I agree with you to an extent, although I don't think you need to be extremely proficient at a throw to teach it. You can still understand the mechanics of a throw and perform it on a compliant uke without being able to do it in competition.

For sure, and even I as an out of practice shodan could still demonstrate any throw you're likely to see in competition (I could probably still do the whole gokyo). But if you had more specific questions about how to make a throw work in competition or how to effectively set it up against a resisting opponent, unless it was one of my 4-5 throws I feel pretty comfortable with I wouldn't be able to give you an in depth answer. I think that's true for a lot of Judo coaches; they just repeat pat answers (set up tai otoshi with ouchi gari!) without necessarily having much experience trying to make stuff work if it's outside their core game.

 

[Balto]

Outside of certain metro areas, US Judo instruction can be pretty bad too. The question is, what is BJJ doing right that teaching standards is more uniform?

I believe it is a business model thing. This is the elephant in the room in all the discussions about BJJ pricing.

There are three main grappling arts widely available in the US: BJJ, Wrestling, and Judo.

BJJ is supported by private citizens. It is very accessible, but also pretty expensive. It is the model everyone loves to complain about.

Wrestling is supported by public institutions. Schools and universities put a lot of money into the sport. It is not very accessible outside of these institutions, but it is close to free within them.

Judo is not supported by private citizens nor public institutions. It actually has very little support at all in the US. It is not big in schools, and nobody wants to pay for it. It is very accessible, but it is not valued.

If you look at the caliber of US practitioners of each art compared internationally, Judo is far and away the weakest. One of my old Judo instructors used to train at the OTC, and he told me firsthand of how the entire US Judo team would get manhandled by regular Japanese university teams when they would travel. It wasn't the Japanese national team handling them; it was just regular guys from Japan who weren't even close to making the team.

My instructor used to complain that there was no way this was ever going to get solved as long as people in the US refused to value Judo. Japanese institutions clearly value it (it's similar to Wrestling in the US), so there is just no way the US can ever hope to be competitive.

BJJ and Wrestling both have motivated, professional level coaches existing in the US. And elite international competition opportunities exist for those who want to go that route.

Judo instead has a very checked out, volunteer, part time instructor corps. Elite international competition success is extremely limited. Some would say it does not truly exist at all.

If the BJJ business model changed to the Judo business model, you could kiss most of the high level BJJ in the US goodbye. Some truly elite level guys are willing to train for free. Terere is an example. They want to do this in Brazil though, not in the US.

The quality of instruction directly correlates with the value practitioners place on it. This is reflected pretty clearly in the prices. BJJ is expensive. Wrestling is expensive too; it's just harder to see how expensive it is because it's funded by larger institutions and not private tuition. But those mat rooms and facilities are far from cheap.

 

[Kbits]

Let me see.
In New Zealand, you need to defeat 10 bb in competition to earn your bb.
How can you earn your bb without competition?
Batsugun rules still applies in my club run by hobbiests.
Win 3 fight in a run and earn your next belt. Kyu rank that is.

Batsugun and line-ups aren't universal; some countries don't use them and/or specific orgs within countries don't use them.

I don't think they do line ups in the US, do they? And even if they did...line up are but one way to earn your BB (again, depending on the org).

BTW...are you sure it's 10 BB you need to defeat...or is it 100 points you need to accumulate after Ikkyu? I ask because, yes - beating a black belt will grant you 20 points....but so will coaching for x period of time + working as a referee.

 

[Kbits]

I don't think you know what you're talking about bud. Randori and the application of proven, effective techniques is the essence of Judo training. That's why many consider Judo a combat sport like MT/BJJ/Boxing rather than some "martial hobby" like karate/tkd.

For example, my club runs under the "non-profit" business model and we've dished out multiple provincial team members, national champions, international competitors.

Sure. But what I'm saying is that there's zero quality control as to who can "teach judo", in most places. Sure, there are exceptions (France springs to mind, immediately). And I know there are great hole in the wall clubs here and there. Still....that doesn't mean that the overwhelming majority of clubs aren't run by enthusiasts with varying levels of competence....some of which is frightfully low.

I once spent a year in a club (only one around) where tachiwaza randori happened once every 2-3 months. This was a mainstream club, in a mainstream org.

What people forget is that tachiwaza randori is kind tough for most new people. If there's one thing that makes folks quit judo, it's taking their lumps....and with so few new adult beginners, watering down is not unheard of.

 

[Judo Thai Boxer]

Batsugun and line-ups aren't universal; some countries don't use them and/or specific orgs within countries don't use them.

I don't think they do line ups in the US, do they? And even if they did...line up are but one way to earn your BB (again, depending on the org).

BTW...are you sure it's 10 BB you need to defeat...or is it 100 points you need to accumulate after Ikkyu? I ask because, yes - beating a black belt will grant you 20 points....but so will coaching for x period of time + working as a referee.

Over here it's 10 points for an ippon win in a level three or higher competition (which is regional opens and nationals) or at a competitive grading. 7 points are awarded for wazaris.

You can't get points any other way as far as I'm aware.

You can earn your dan grades 'technically' but you need a minimum of 5 years in grade as 1st kyu and I think the number of years increases per dan.

 

[Kbits]

That's BJA, right? What are the other orgs like?

Here's the JFA (one of the 3 or 4 Judo orgs in Australia; probably the largest one)

https://assets.imgstg.com/assets/console/document/documents/J***radesPolicyJune2008.pdf

There are five methods of obtaining promotion within the sport of Judo.
They are as follows:
a) Contest Points and Knowledge
b) Knowledge of the Art with Service to the Sport of Judo
c) Knowledge of the Art of Judo.
d) Outstanding Achievement in the Sport of Judo
e) Batsugan

The Dan Grading process aims to reflect the long-term career of a judoka.

It is acknowledged that the majority of Dan grades will be obtained via,
a) Contest Points and Knowledge, or
b) Knowledge and Service Points, or
c) Knowledge only

Generally, there is an expectation that judoka will grade up to San Dan via the
contest points and knowledge pathway. Judoka who undertake this pathway
may apply (when eligible) for promotion to the grades of Roku Dan and above.
Service points in the areas of Administration, Coaching, Refereeing and Team
Management are awarded annually to recognise a member

 

[Judo Thai Boxer]

Yeah that's BJA. I don't think the BJC are as strict competition wise.

Some of the smaller organisations are a joke though.

Pretty much the same as what you have there except they don't deviate from their guidelines very often. I know someone who struggled to get their technical dan grade after years of being a 1st kyu because they let their membership lapse.