Judo and Self Defense

[Bayonet]

I don't see how if you were attacked and you seriously injured your opponent or even killed using BJJ that could not be seen as self defence

The thing is, you were never in any real danger in the first place. I mean, you're one of those deranged cage fighters who competes in illegal bloodsports as a hobby, and the young man you murdered was just a good kid who was just about turn his life around. Honestly, it's pretty likely that you were out LOOKING for an altercation, so you could test out your UFC murder skills on some innocent person. You monster.

 

[GottaGoPee]

The thing is, you were never in any real danger in the first place. I mean, you're one of those deranged cage fighters who competes in illegal bloodsports as a hobby, and the young man you murdered was just a good kid who was just about turn his life around. Honestly, it's pretty likely that you were out LOOKING for an altercation, so you could test out your UFC murder skills on some innocent person. You monster.

Hahaha nice!

He who smelt it dealt it.

 

[peregrine]

It is surprising how many people believe they will be attacked by unarmed guy, with intentions to kill.
If someone is looking to rob you, he just wants you to be scared and give him your belongings. Then he will be on his way.
If he wants you injured or dead, he will take precautions and ambush you, using element of surprise. He will use anything to his advantage. In most cases, that includes weapons.
If you believe you are practicing anything to help you prevent been shot or stabbed to death from behind, I have a bad news for you.
The majority of cases you could use martial arts, would be while drinking. Then you need to be able to recognize the use of force necessary. I'm speaking from experience, been long time night clubs operator. A good lawyer can shut down entire venue, because the bouncer hit a patron in the face. And that makes the managers extra careful with the security details.
If you try a choke on someone in the club though, you are attempting murder, which gives a green light for some Maglite action and you have to know that the police is usually on the side of the bouncers.
So yeah, the ability to immobilize people, while been able to talk and explain, without threatening gestures, is vital in those scenarios.
In reality, the only chance you would have to work a choke, without any legal actions, would be in Iraq or Afghanistan, but God help you, if you screwed up the procedure and ended up scrambling with someone you were supposed to shoot from 500 meters.

I don't agree with your summation of a would be robber. They will not necessarily be on their way as possessions may not be their only goal.

Hold up men go through a long process of mental hardening to desensitize them to taking by force what is not theirs. A person doesn't wake up and say I'm going to rob someone. They start start small, likely shop lifting, burglary. You also have to be willing to take by force. That means they are comfortable with hurting their victims by varying degree. But, to rob someone you have to always know in the back of your mind someone could try to kill you.

 

[peregrine]

How about Judo though? Imagine someone comes at you aggressively and you manage to load them up on your hip. Just a lot of the time when people throw a resisting opponent, the throw is sort of slow, with the off balancing and loading portion of the technique taking a sort of long time. Once the person is in a position to be thrown, the completion is really deliberate. Not always. Sometimes a throw is sudden and violent.

You can however, make it clear to everyone that your opponent is helpless mid throw. People even have time to tap, look around, or yell for help mid technique sometimes. If you complete the throw at that point, what are the legal repercussions? Anyone have any idea?

It's pretty hard to load a fighting grown man on your hip...then make it known you could fk him up.
He will likely be fighting tooth and nail.
^Then you stop mid throw...negotiate?
Naw...I'm not that good.

If you do throw them, you could kill them if they don't know how to break fall and hit their skull or land on an object with their spine.


Fear of life or grievous bodily injury to ones self or other is the only justification for the use of force.

Be able to articulate and justify your actions. Prepare to be arrested and spend time in jail.


If anything does happen prepare to have ALL of your social media seized and scoured over.

 

[SteelHammer]

The goal of a fighting system is to enable you to win in a fight. Once you're capable of that, you're also capable of deciding how little or how much damage to inflict along the way. If you're worried about the repercussions of dealing too much, then don't deal too much.

But I wouldn't worry about it at all. If was a attacked by an unarmed assailant, I would (presuming he wasn't stronger than me) beat him into the ground, get to mount, and beat him some more, then run away. I guarantee that I wouldn't go to prison for that. I was violently attacked, made sure he was completely subdued, and then ran in case he had friends nearby. That's a very common scenario and people don't go to jail for it.

 

[vcmmafan]

Someone needs to make a WinterGrappler account with the Winter Solider as the Avatar to argue with the OP whenever he posts

 

[SteelHammer]

Not this stupid shit again.

1) You don't fight unless you are attacked and have no opetion to escape.
2) If you are forced to fight, then you do whatever is necessary to ensure your safety, and quite frankly the "legal aspect" of it should be the absolute last thing on your mind, no, scratch that, it should not be on your mind at all.
3) Once the threat is neutralized, you GTFO of there. Don't look back, don't call the police, don't open your mouth about what happened.

It's simple really.

This whole notion of restraining an attacker until the police can come to deal with the situation is just flat out retarded and ignorant of the way that shit goes down in the real world.

Agree 100%

 

[SteelHammer]

In summary I would rather risk even a 30% chance of prison time, than a 5% chance of dying by holding back and not making sure an assailant is completely KOd

 

[The Karate Man]

In summary I would rather risk even a 30% chance of prison time, than a 5% chance of dying by holding back and not making sure an assailant is completely KOd

^ My thoughts

 

[rmongler]

your opponent should be honored to die at the hands of one with superior martial virtue. gnon gives his blessings on those who vanquish the unworthy.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

The goal of a fighting system is to enable you to win in a fight. Once you're capable of that, you're also capable of deciding how little or how much damage to inflict along the way. If you're worried about the repercussions of dealing too much, then don't deal too much.

But I wouldn't worry about it at all. If was a attacked by an unarmed assailant, I would (presuming he wasn't stronger than me) beat him into the ground, get to mount, and beat him some more, then run away. I guarantee that I wouldn't go to prison for that. I was violently attacked, made sure he was completely subdued, and then ran in case he had friends nearby. That's a very common scenario and people don't go to jail for it.

Here is a very common scenario, which I have witnessed several times:
Guy A drinks in a bar, where guy B is with his GF.
Guy B goes to toilet and Guy A buys the GF a drink.
Guy B comes back and gets pissed off.
Both yell at each other.
Guy A shoves guy B.
Guy B takes Guy A down and kicks him repeatedly to the head and ribs.
Guy B is held by the security of the place until police arrives.
Police checks video surveillance and later on Guy B pays fine and does a few months time or gets probation for assault and aggravated battery (a felony).

Yes, A attacked B first. But the criminal in this case is B.
It makes a great difference in the eyes of the law and every martial artist should be aware of the consequences of his possible actions.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I don't agree with your summation of a would be robber. They will not necessarily be on their way as possessions may not be their only goal.

Hold up men go through a long process of mental hardening to desensitize them to taking by force what is not theirs. A person doesn't wake up and say I'm going to rob someone. They start start small, likely shop lifting, burglary. You also have to be willing to take by force. That means they are comfortable with hurting their victims by varying degree. But, to rob someone you have to always know in the back of your mind someone could try to kill you.

If someone is robing you, he wants to scare you and push your mind in the direction of obeying him, in order to get what he wants. Robbers are not killers and they are very aware of the difference in sentences they could get for aggravated robbery
If his intention is to hurt or kill you, he won't be showing you this, but rather ambush you and use a weapon before you even see him. There's pretty much nothing you can do in that case.
If you are about to be kidnapped though, chances are, your attacker wants to take you, without hurting you seriously, so in case he is alone, he might try to scare you at gun point. Depending on the country (I am in Mexico ATM) chances of you to come back vary greatly. I'd say, if you are in a place where 90% of the kidnapped are found in burned pieces you better fight for your life at the time of the assault. It's a lot better to die right there, than been terrified and tortured in some barn, God knows where.
In how many of those cases you believe you can really use your Berimbolo?

 

[JohnSouth]

If you end up dead on some cold street because you were more concerned about legal consequences than properly defending yourself, you lose completely.

Honestly some people would be better off.

No job, no money, no house, ruined reputation...for an older person that is game over.

Yeah you gotta defend yourself but I don't agree it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

George Zimmerman probably wishes he was dead, much easier that way.

 

[Shemhazai]

Onq knows what's up.

 

[sauron0379]

Close distance>Establish clinch>Takedown or pull guard if they are big>gain mount>finish with strikes or subs. Bjj works for self-defense, especially against the high chance that your attacker is untrained. A person provoking fights and practices BJJ doesn't under stand the philosophy of BJJ. Efficiency sometimes is walking away, as hard as that may be, but when you have no other choice, you do what you have to do. To the OP, if your concern is defending yourself in a 100% unpredictable environment, find a school that focuses on that, and more importantly hold there feet to the fire about there curriculum. Most schools are sport oriented, which is fine, just the focus is more on scoring points and developing a strategy to take the best advantage of a rule system.

 

[Shemhazai]

Takedown or pull guard if they are big

No.

 

[peregrine]

If someone is robing you, he wants to scare you and push your mind in the direction of obeying him, in order to get what he wants. Robbers are not killers and they are very aware of the difference in sentences they could get for aggravated robbery
If his intention is to hurt or kill you, he won't be showing you this, but rather ambush you and use a weapon before you even see him. There's pretty much nothing you can do in that case.
If you are about to be kidnapped though, chances are, your attacker wants to take you, without hurting you seriously, so in case he is alone, he might try to scare you at gun point. Depending on the country (I am in Mexico ATM) chances of you to come back vary greatly. I'd say, if you are in a place where 90% of the kidnapped are found in burned pieces you better fight for your life at the time of the assault. It's a lot better to die right there, than been terrified and tortured in some barn, God knows where.
In how many of those cases you believe you can really use your Berimbolo?

^I mentioned nothing about the berimbolo.

I disagree with your post. Though it may be lost in translation. You are in Mexico.
I am saying a person that robs you armed is a whole different person than someone who burglarizes. By them robbing you armed they are willing to hurt another person to get their demands, and know that they could be severely hurt or killed in the process by their victims, or police.

 

[SummerStriker]

It's pretty hard to load a fighting grown man on your hip...then make it known you could fk him up.
He will likely be fighting tooth and nail.
^Then you stop mid throw...negotiate?
Naw...I'm not that good.

I think people can sometimes get that good when you compare fit, weight lifting intermediate practitioners to the average gym bro.

The last Judo man I know who got in a fist fight / attacked no shit picked the guy up off the floor with two hands around his neck and lifted him up a wall about like this:

But instead of throwing him he just held him there for a few seconds until he was satisfied the guy wasn't threatening him any more.

 

[Shemhazai]

The whole issue of stopping mid-throw due to having 'neutralized' the opponent already makes no sense. You do whatever you feel is necessary within reasonable limits to defend yourself against an ongoing, imminent threat.

If the only reason the guy is not a threat is that you currently have him bearhugged/lifted/pinned, but you have good reason to believe that he will continue his attack once you allow him to, then you continue to do what is necessary to avoid a continued attack.

Mind you, extending this logic to some kind of Macchiavellian preemption of any future retaliation obviously won't fly in court.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

^I mentioned nothing about the berimbolo.

I disagree with your post. Though it may be lost in translation. You are in Mexico.
I am saying a person that robs you armed is a whole different person than someone who burglarizes. By them robbing you armed they are willing to hurt another person to get their demands, and know that they could be severely hurt or killed in the process by their victims, or police.

I am an east european, who lived in Japan, China and Mexico for the last 15 years.
I was a teenager when the Eastern Bloc crumbled and witnessed and experienced first hand many of the hypothetical scenarios you are picturing here.
I personaly know people from both sides of the law, various military servants (US marines included) and I am describing what I have seen and what those people have told me.

The guy who comes at you and shows you a weapon, doesnt want to hurt you. He wants to take your money, wallet, watch. If you start screaming and defending your self, you might get hurt, because he will panick. If you just hand him over what he wants, he will flee asap. The thief is not a killer and he is as scared as is his victim.
Robbers and burglars are concerned about their identity been revealed, so avoiding eye contact would keep you safer.
People who want to hurt you, are different. They are predators, who operate on known territory and most important THEY HAVE MOTIVE! They are not after your riches. They rarely will hang around good neighborhoods and if not familiar with the behaviour of this type of criminals, you will not see them coming at all, until its too late.

You are assuming that everyone on the street is eager to hurt and kill people, when in reality it takes a special type of mind (or drugs) to even want to do that.
Talk to your local police officer and you will hear this: in case you are robbed at gun or knife point, just part with your belongings and the attacker will most probably leave. If you are getting kidnapped though, fight till the end. So, if anyone points a gun at you and asks you to follow him in the alley/ the van, away from other people or possible help, do your best not to.

The berimbolo was an example to people who believe sport oriented art can actually prevent this kind of dangers.