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Judging Ineptitude Question (Re: Jack v Boute)

Chacos9466

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Hello all,

First, I must preface this by saying that I am a far bigger fan of mma than boxing. That bears mentioning because there might be a simple answer to my questions that anyone with a greater knowledge of boxing would have. Anyway, reading the account of Jack v Boute and how the judges scored it left me wondering about judging in boxing vs judging in mma. MMA judges turn in head scratching scorecards on an all too consistent basis. When that happens, common statements seem to center around how judges are (at least in the US) assigned by state commissions and sometimes those judges have rarely if ever judged an mma fight before. It makes sense in a way since boxing has a long and storied tradition while MMA has only emerged in its current form over the past few decades.
Now though, I see an example of bad judging in a pretty high profile fight. Is this common? In addition, what are the factors that lead to conflicting views in a sport where the scoring criteria have been clearly defined (as I understand it at least) for a long time and the judges are more experienced?
 
Hello all,

First, I must preface this by saying that I am a far bigger fan of mma than boxing. That bears mentioning because there might be a simple answer to my questions that anyone with a greater knowledge of boxing would have. Anyway, reading the account of Jack v Boute and how the judges scored it left me wondering about judging in boxing vs judging in mma. MMA judges turn in head scratching scorecards on an all too consistent basis. When that happens, common statements seem to center around how judges are (at least in the US) assigned by state commissions and sometimes those judges have rarely if ever judged an mma fight before. It makes sense in a way since boxing has a long and storied tradition while MMA has only emerged in its current form over the past few decades.
Now though, I see an example of bad judging in a pretty high profile fight. Is this common? In addition, what are the factors that lead to conflicting views in a sport where the scoring criteria have been clearly defined (as I understand it at least) for a long time and the judges are more experienced?
Is what common? For boxing judges to be inexperienced?
Honestly, most "bad decisions" are usually just close fights and people get mad when the score they had isn't what the judges had.
The truth is, the scoring criteria is just not all that cut and dried. Its pretty subjective. You might get 3 judges who like the aggressor. You might get a judge that favors the technical boxer. One might like the guy "trying to make the fight."
 
^ The only addenda I'd add to Seano's explanation is that I personally think promoters & managers know the track record of judges (this guy tends to favour punchers, this guy swarmers, this guy hometown fighters etc) & explicitly head-hunt them depending on whoever's fighting.

That might sound paranoid, but pretty much any marquee fighter with money behind them always gets the appropriate referee written into their contract; the next logical step is the judges.

As Seano said, scoring criteria are so subjective, combined with known biases & you've got most of the explanations for 90% of boxing's decisions right there.
 
Now though, I see an example of bad judging in a pretty high profile fight. Is this common? In addition, what are the factors that lead to conflicting views in a sport where the scoring criteria have been clearly defined (as I understand it at least) for a long time and the judges are more experienced?

Common sense is often hard to find among boxing officials. Look at Chavez vs. Taylor I - Taylor is winning by a wide margin. He gets knocked down with 17 seconds left in the fight. He is clearly hurt, but he gets up. The ref looks him over. Now there are 5 seconds left. The ref waves his hand with TWO SECONDS LEFT, stopping the fight, and making Chavez the winner. Granted, we need refs to protect boxers' health, but there's TWO SECONDS LEFT! If the ref had allowed the fight to continue, it would have been over before anyone could throw another punch.



As for judges...
 
Common sense is often hard to find among boxing officials. Look at Chavez vs. Taylor I - Taylor is winning by a wide margin. He gets knocked down with 17 seconds left in the fight. He is clearly hurt, but he gets up. The ref looks him over. Now there are 5 seconds left. The ref waves his hand with THREE SECONDS LEFT, stopping the fight, and making Chavez the winner. Granted, we need refs to protect boxers' health, but there's THREE SECONDS LEFT! If the ref had allowed the fight to continue, it would have been over before anyone could throw another punch.

[]
Nah, that was a good call. There is very specific protocol for the ref to follow in deciding if a fighter is fit to continue and how much time is left on the clock is not part of it.

Steele asked Taylor if he was OK TWICE and Taylor stood there going "herrrrppppp....."

And the idea that there was only 3 seconds left- What if the timekeeper had been off by a few seconds? We've seen that happen a million times. As hurt as Taylor was there, a good shot from Chavez in the closing seconds would have been a disaster.
 
Nah, that was a good call. There is very specific protocol for the ref to follow in deciding if a fighter is fit to continue and how much time is left on the clock is not part of it.

Steele asked Taylor if he was OK TWICE and Taylor stood there going "herrrrppppp....."

And the idea that there was only 3 seconds left- What if the timekeeper had been off by a few seconds? We've seen that happen a million times. As hurt as Taylor was there, a good shot from Chavez in the closing seconds would have been a disaster.

Protocol can kiss my ass. The ref stopped the fight because the boxer might be hurt by punches that no one would have had time to throw. Even if there was another 2 seconds left, it wouldn't have given them time to move to the middle of the ring and start boxing again.
 
it is really stupid how it works. i am friendly with a boxing judge here in vegas that works a lot of big fights. after a judge scored floyd vs. canelo 114-114, i asked him how this could happen. were judges told how to score it if possible? he said no. however, the promoters pick the judges. and if you want to keep working big fights, you might need to consider what is best for business. otherwise you might see less of the big fights.
 
Protocol can kiss my ass. The ref stopped the fight because the boxer might be hurt by punches that no one would have had time to throw. Even if there was another 2 seconds left, it wouldn't have given them time to move to the middle of the ring and start boxing again.
Well, those are the rules. The ref is concerned about fighter safety, not trying to make a snap decision about how much time is left. Such a decision would pretty clearly be favoring Taylor. Thats not impartial.

Personally, thats why I always felt like Bute vs Andrade was one of the truest robberies I've seen in recent years.
 
Well, those are the rules. The ref is concerned about fighter safety, not trying to make a snap decision about how much time is left. Such a decision would pretty clearly be favoring Taylor. Thats not impartial.

Personally, thats why I always felt like Bute vs Andrade was one of the truest robberies I've seen in recent years.
No matter how many times I watch it, Bute is up by 8-9 unless I am trying to count dishonestly fast.



BUT, the fight should have been stopped well before he hit the ground. He was literally falling across the ring.
 
Is what common? For boxing judges to be inexperienced?
Honestly, most "bad decisions" are usually just close fights and people get mad when the score they had isn't what the judges had.
The truth is, the scoring criteria is just not all that cut and dried. Its pretty subjective. You might get 3 judges who like the aggressor. You might get a judge that favors the technical boxer. One might like the guy "trying to make the fight."
Sorry, I might not have been clear. I meant that the experience issue in MMA should not (at least in theory) be an issue for boxing as it has been around for a longer period of time and has a higher profile (at least for the major stars). Thanks for the insight though.
 
^ The only addenda I'd add to Seano's explanation is that I personally think promoters & managers know the track record of judges (this guy tends to favour punchers, this guy swarmers, this guy hometown fighters etc) & explicitly head-hunt them depending on whoever's fighting.

That might sound paranoid, but pretty much any marquee fighter with money behind them always gets the appropriate referee written into their contract; the next logical step is the judges.

As Seano said, scoring criteria are so subjective, combined with known biases & you've got most of the explanations for 90% of boxing's decisions right there.

I had no idea. That's very interesting. As an mma fan (trying to get into boxing but still in the early stages of that) it makes me think of Cormier calling out Herb for not punishing Jones for his eye pokes before 197 (and before his injury). I don't think DC expected Herb to be replaced but simply wanted him on notice and more likely to penalize Jones in their fight. I am definitely going to keep an eye on judging/ref assignments when I watch boxing going forward. Thanks.
 
Now though, I see an example of bad judging in a pretty high profile fight. Is this common? In addition, what are the factors that lead to conflicting views in a sport where the scoring criteria have been clearly defined (as I understand it at least) for a long time and the judges are more experienced?

In most cases in the US, the state commission for boxing picks three judges and a number of alternates for each fight; in most cases, each boxer's camp has the right to request that one or more of the three appointees be replaced from the alternate pool. Ideally, the judges will be as neutral as possible, but there are many cases in which it appears that the judges favor one fighter over the other - often, the "favored" boxer is the hometown boy.

There are some widely accepted theoretical scoring criteria, but in practice, whatever the judges say is correct - even when it is obviously incorrect. In theory, here's how it should work.


- The fight is scored round-by-round.

- "The Ten Point Must System":

You don't gain points, you lose them. That is to say, you don't start out the round with 0 points and work your way up. You start out with 10 and work your way down. By default, the starting point will be 10-9, with the boxer who performed better winning the round; however, it isn't unheard of for a round to be scored 10-10 if neither boxer did much. If one boxer looked like absolute shit and the other didn't do anything wrong, the round might be scored 10-8. In theory, the judges can dock as many points as they like for a poor performance, but it is fairly rare to see a round with no knockdowns and no fouls get scored with more than a one (or in rare cases, two) point difference between the boxers.

The judges are supposed to decide who starts off with 10 points (before deductions) based on the following criteria:​

1. Hard, clean punches: Who is hitting harder, and landing more punches cleanly on the face, head, chest, and sides of his opponent's abdomen? Not grazing punches or blocked punches, but punches that hit the target?

2. "Ring Generalship": Who is controlling the action, setting the pace, and imposing his will on the fight?

3. Defense: Who is doing a better job of avoiding incoming blows and blocking what he can't dodge, duck, or slip?

4. "Effective Aggression": Who is moving towards his opponent, and forcing his opponent to retreat? Who is landing a greater percentage of their punches, and avoiding his opponent's counters? Who is dominating the other guy?​

- Knockdowns:

Each time you get knocked down, you lose a point. If you get knocked down once and you knock down your opponent in the same round, the knockdowns cancel each other out, and no one loses a point.​

More accurately, each time the ref says you got knocked down, you lose a point. Refs are as imperfect as judges, so they make mistakes, they don't see everything that happens, sometimes they think they see one thing when they actually saw something else, and they can bring their own biases to their job. Sometimes they declare a knockdown to be a "slip" (which means no one loses a point, although they should), and sometimes they declare a slip to be a knockdown (which means someone loses a point, although they shouldn't). Sometimes, they don't see a knockdown when it happens. Sometimes, they think they saw a knockdown when they didn't.​

- Fouls:

If the ref calls a foul, he determines how many points should be deducted from the score of the guilty party. In theory, the ref is supposed to give at least one warning for an unintentional foul or minor infraction (excessive holding, headbutting, using the elbows, wrestling, pushing your opponent down, low blows, etc), and start docking points if the guilty party ignores the warning(s) and continues doing whatever he was warned to not do. If he thinks that the first foul he sees is clearly intentional, he can deduct points immediately.​

If the ref decides that one of the fighters is deliberately and repeatedly breaking a specific rule and needs to be penalized, he usually stops the fight for a moment, pulls the guilty party to the center of the ring and sends the other fighter to his corner, then faces one side of the ring, says "[insert number here] point(s)" and holds up the corresponding number of fingers, then turns to the next side of the ring, repeats the statement, turns to the next side, and so on.​

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When this happens, the judges are obligated to obey the ref's call. That is to say, the judges can't deduct points for fouls unless the ref calls them fouls, they can't ignore the ref's decision even if they think he was wrong, and they can't choose how many points they will deduct for the foul - if the ref says one point, they can't deduct zero or three or a thousand. They have to deduct however many points he tells them to, no more, no less.​

Obviously, this means that the ref has an enormous amount of power in deciding the score of a fight. If he wants to, he can dock points every time either boxer does anything vaguely similar to a foul, or he can dock one guy over and over and let the other guy get away with murder, or he can sit there with his thumb up his ass while one boxer throws an endless barrage of punches into his opponent's testicles, like this guy did:​



This fight is on every list of the worst refereeing jobs of the last 10 years, and it should be - the ref was totally oblivious to what must have been 20 or more low blows (I count at least 25). Not only did the ref refuse to dock Mares so much as a single point - he actually scored one of the low blows as a knockdown because Agbeko finally fell to his knees after 20-something punches to the balls. In a perfect world, Mares would have been warned once or twice, then lost a point, then lost another two points, then been disqualified. But because the ref was incompetent, he won. If the ref doesn't call it a foul, the judges don't treat it as one.​

- Points Decisions:

If neither fighter has quit, been knocked out, or been disqualified by the end of the last round, the winner is determined by score; this is known as a "points decision". Each judge adds up his/her scores for each round, and says the winner is whoever has more points. If all three judges say the same fighter won, it is a unanimous decision. If two judges say the same boxer won, and the third judge declares a draw, it is a majority decision. If two judges say the same boxer won, and the third judge says the other fighter won, it is a split decision. If at least two judges declare the fight a draw, it is a draw. If one judge says one fighter won, the second judge says the other fighter won, and the third judge says it was a draw, it is a draw.​

- Stoppages:

There are different kinds of stoppages, and they mean different things:

1. Retiring: If a boxer decides he doesn't want to continue fighting, he can quit at any time. If he does, his opponent wins by "Technical Knock Out", or "TKO". In some cases. each boxer's corner can call off the fight in the same way, which also results in a loss by TKO; in other cases, if your corner tries to stop the fight, the ref has to ask you if you wish to continue, and if you do, the fight goes on.

2. Referee Stoppage: If a boxer is taking a dangerous amount of damage, and the ref believes the fighter is unable to defend himself, the ref will stop the fight. Again, this results in a TKO.

3. Doctor Stoppage: This works the same way as a referee stoppage.

4. Injuries Due to Fouls: If a fighter is unable to continue because of a foul, one of several things will happen:

- If an injury from an intentional foul immediately results in the fight being stopped, the guilty party loses by disqualification.

- If an injury from an intentional foul results in the fight being stopped later on, the judges will tally their scores. If the injured fighter is ahead on the cards, he wins by technical decision. If the injured fighter is tied or behind on the cards, the fight is declared a technical draw.

- If an injury from an unintentional foul results in the fight being stopped before the end of the fourth round, the fight is declared a no contest/no decision (WBF) or technical draw (WBC).

- If an injury from an unintentional foul results in the fight being stopped after the end of the fourth round, the judges will tally their scores. If one fighter is ahead on the cards, he wins by technical decision. If the scores are tied, the fight is declared a technical draw.
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The point of all of this:
The rules might seem pretty clear cut, and I guess they are, for the most part, but the problem comes from putting the rules into practice. There is plenty of room for disagreement on whether a certain fall is a knockdown or a slip, whether a foul is intentional or unintentional, etc. And even if a clear foul (intentional or otherwise), slip, or knockdown has occurred, it only counts if the ref sees it AND calls it as such. And that's just the stuff that can result in deductions!

It is even harder to achieve consistency in the other aspects of the fight - "Effective Aggression", "Hard and Clean Punches", "Defense", and "Ring Generalship". These things are completely subjective, and an observer's opinion of them often has as much to do with which fighter he prefers as it does with the way the fight is actually going.



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For the record, fouls include:

- Low blows, holding, tripping, kicking, headbutting, wrestling, biting, pushing, spitting on opponents, or forcibly turning the opponent around.

- Hitting with the head, shoulder, forearm, elbow, wrist, side of the hand, inside of the glove, back of the hand, or an open glove.

- Hitting the opponent in the back, back of the head or neck, or kidneys.

- Hitting the opponent while holding the ropes for leverage.

- Holding while hitting, or "hitting on the break" (if the ref breaks a clinch, both fighters have to take a full step back before throwing more punches).

- Deliberately removing your mouthguard to get a break.

- Hitting the opponent while he is on the ground.

- Turning your back on your opponent unless you are quitting the fight.
 
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No matter how many times I watch it, Bute is up by 8-9 unless I am trying to count dishonestly fast.



BUT, the fight should have been stopped well before he hit the ground. He was literally falling across the ring.

Yeah, he was UP in time but he was not fit to continue and the ref didn't bother to follow the protocol involved that is used to make that decision. Bute was out of it there and the count was way long. The ref also did NOT pick up the timekeeper's count after turning around to scold Andrade mid count.



22 second 8 count.

Ridiculous home town robbery right there.
 
Yeah, he was UP in time but he was not fit to continue and the ref didn't bother to follow the protocol involved that is used to make that decision. Bute was out of it there and the count was way long. The ref also did NOT pick up the timekeeper's count after turning around to scold Andrade mid count.
Wait, the rules even include counts that go beyond the length of the fight? So a fighter can be deemed unfit to continue even when there's no more match to continue in?

I thought "you can't be saved by the bell" meant "if you're on the ground when the bell rings, the count continues and you still have to be on your feet by 10". Does it also mean "If a count in the final round goes past the bell, and you're standing but incapable of fighting, you lose"?
 
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Wait, the rules even include counts that go beyond the length of the fight? So a fighter can be deemed unfit to continue even when there's no more match to continue in?

I thought "you can't be saved by the bell" meant "if you're on the ground when the bell rings, the count continues and you still have to be on your feet by 10". Does it also mean "If a count in the final round goes past the bell, and you're standing but incapable of fighting, you lose"?
No, if you're not fit to continue, then you got knocked out. The bell rings at the conclusion of the count and the ref waves the fight on.
 
No, if you're not fit to continue, then you got knocked out. The bell rings at the conclusion of the count and the ref waves the fight on.
Can you be disqualified after the end of the final round? Like, if you throw a deliberate and blatant late punch as your opponent walks away after the bell?




Let's say James Butler won his fight with Richard Grant, but still sucker punched him (and let's say he did it immediately after the bell). Could he be disqualified despite the fact that the fight was over, or would the commission have to give him the win and just ban him forever?
 
Arthur Abraham vs Andre dirrell answers your question
 
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