Jordan Peterson - The Intellectual We Deserve

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It is the case. One of those things that might not be obvious to you until you start thinking about it (and looking at polling data--and FYI, right-wingers on Wall Street donate to Republicans). As it was basically a one-person race from the start, Sanders was the choice of people who were dissatisfied with the Democratic Party for any reason--people who thought it was too far left and who thought it was too far right (among other quibbles people may have had). There was no pattern of Clinton doing better in "Republican heartlands," though her stronger support among minorities gave her an advantage in some Southern states.

On economics, Trump is a pretty conventional Republican, with a few very minor (and really dumb) additions. Clinton's economic platform was probably further left than any presidential candidate's has been, though not as far left as Sanders'.

That you have Wall St money backing Republicans and Democrats like Clinton I think proves my point, backing both sides because both ultimately suit their agenda.

The democratic primary's were obviously intended to be a one person race from the start with a setup rigged to limit the potential for another Obama style upset yet obviously we saw Sanders seriously challenge.

Clinton was at the very least keeping votes in the republican heartlands whilst losing them in democrat heartlands, the minority vote was really the product of Trump antagonising them and also not in itself automatically left wing.
 
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That you have Wall St money backing Republicans and Democrats like Clinton I think proves my point, backing both sides because both ultimately suit their agenda.

I don't think it does. You're not talking about the same people. Lots of people who work in finance are liberals.

The democratic primary's were obviously intended to be a one person race from the start with a setup rigged to limit the potential for another Obama style upset yet obviously we saw Sanders seriously challenge.

So you get the point I made, right? Sanders was getting "protest" votes from Democrats at both ends of the spectrum. Also, the race wasn't really that close.

Clinton was at the very least keeping votes in the republican heartlands whilst losing them in democrat heartlands, the minority vote was really the product of Trump antagonising them and also not in itself automatically left wing.

Oh, I got caught up in the primary thing there. In the general, Clinton took some educated whites in Republican areas and lost more racially motivated voters in Democratic areas.
 
I don't think it does. You're not talking about the same people. Lots of people who work in finance are liberals.

Well to start with "work in finance" is a misdirection, were not talking about passing a hat around every wall st employee for donations, were talking those at the very top. Some of these people maybe socially liberial I'd agree(although this is unlikely much motivation for them) but few or none of them are economically left wing which really proves my point, Clinton an economically right wing(especially so at the outset, forced a little to the left by Sanders) hawkish candidate being sold on identity politics.

So you get the point I made, right? Sanders was getting "protest" votes from Democrats at both ends of the spectrum. Also, the race wasn't really that close.

He was clearly getting the vast majority of his support from those desiring a shift to the left economically. That this kind of anti establishment feeling was stomped on much more effectively than the variety Trump was after(mostly anti liberalism) is really the story of the election for me and indeed highlights which kind of anti establishment view is more feared by those at the top.
 
Well to start with "work in finance" is a misdirection, were not talking about passing a hat around every wall st employee for donations, were talking those at the very top.

That is actually what we're talking about. When you look at Open Secrets (I assume where you're getting the numbers), the numbers are individual employees of different companies.

Some of these people maybe socially liberial I'd agree(although this is unlikely much motivation for them) but few or none of them are economically left wing which really proves my point, Clinton an economically right wing(especially so at the outset, forced a little to the left by Sanders) hawkish candidate being sold on identity politics.

Lots of major falsehoods here. Lots of people in finance are very economically left wing. I can say that with 100% certainty because I know a few (and they know a few, etc.). There's no reasonable standard that you can use to describe Clinton was economically right-wing at any point in her political life. She's always been to the left of the median Democrat, and she was to the left of any previous presidential nominee. Granted that extremists don't generally get nominated, but that only reinforces the point about standards. And she wasn't sold on identity politics at all. She ran a very wonkish campaign.

He was clearly getting the vast majority of his support from those desiring a shift to the left economically.

"The vast majority" is an imprecise term. He got a bigger chunk of his support from people who opposed the party from the left (among primary voters who describe themselves as "very liberal," the race was tied, while Clinton won other groups by fairly big margins), but people who opposed the party from the right also supported Bernie. As I said (and I thought we agreed), he was the generic protest vote.
 
That is actually what we're talking about. When you look at Open Secrets (I assume where you're getting the numbers), the numbers are individual employees of different companies.

Lots of major falsehoods here. Lots of people in finance are very economically left wing. I can say that with 100% certainty because I know a few (and they know a few, etc.). There's no reasonable standard that you can use to describe Clinton was economically right-wing at any point in her political life. She's always been to the left of the median Democrat, and she was to the left of any previous presidential nominee. Granted that extremists don't generally get nominated, but that only reinforces the point about standards. And she wasn't sold on identity politics at all. She ran a very wonkish campaign.

Again your talking about "working in finance" yet actual significant donations/support is not going to be dependant on your rank and file employee is it? its going to come from those at the very top.

When were talking "left" and "right" were also of course talking about the current climate which for the last 30+ years has been very strongly to the right economically, its possible to be slightly to the left of that whilst sill ultimately being on the right.

"The vast majority" is an imprecise term. He got a bigger chunk of his support from people who opposed the party from the left (among primary voters who describe themselves as "very liberal," the race was tied, while Clinton won other groups by fairly big margins), but people who opposed the party from the right also supported Bernie. As I said (and I thought we agreed), he was the generic protest vote.

The vast majority is I think an accurate term and you making my point for me by again repeatedly looking to interchange being economically left wing with being "liberal". Both picked up socially liberal support, Sanders picked up more economically left wing support.

When your talking "anti establishment" of course your not talking a set demographic, theres potentially some overlap between Trump and Sanders on issues like protectionism(Trumps least right wing platform) but really one was targeting mostly anti liberal feeling and the other targeting anti economic establishment feeling.
 
Again your talking about "working in finance" yet actual significant donations/support is not going to be dependant on your rank and file employee is it? its going to come from those at the very top.

Not direct donations to the campaign because of limits. But even the Super PAC amounts were small. From the securities and investment as a whole, the campaign got around $7M, and PACs got $51M. From commercial banks and miscellaneous finance, Clinton got hardly anything ($1.2M for PACs and $4.4M for the campaign). Those amounts certainly can, and most likely did, come from the rank and file.

When were talking "left" and "right" were also of course talking about the current climate which for the last 30+ years has been very strongly to the right economically, its possible to be slightly to the left of that whilst sill ultimately being on the right.

I guess, but then you're not saying that she's situated on the right economically in recent American history but rather by an extreme-left standard that would make her unelectable at the middle.

The vast majority is I think an accurate term and you making my point for me by again repeatedly looking to interchange being economically left wing with being "liberal". Both picked up socially liberal support, Sanders picked up more economically left wing support.

Sanders got the nutso identitarian left and the left and right economically. Clinton won basically every subgroup (as noted, the vote wasn't really that close), but did best with moderates across all dimensions.

When your talking "anti establishment" of course your not talking a set demographic, theres potentially some overlap between Trump and Sanders on issues like protectionism(Trumps least right wing platform) but really one was targeting mostly anti liberal feeling and the other targeting anti economic establishment feeling.

I wouldn't call protectionism left wing. It basically works out to cronyism, which is more right-wing.
 
Not direct donations to the campaign because of limits. But even the Super PAC amounts were small. From the securities and investment as a whole, the campaign got around $7M, and PACs got $51M. From commercial banks and miscellaneous finance, Clinton got hardly anything ($1.2M for PACs and $4.4M for the campaign). Those amounts certainly can, and most likely did, come from the rank and file.

I guess, but then you're not saying that she's situated on the right economically in recent American history but rather by an extreme-left standard that would make her unelectable at the middle.

Sanders got the nutso identitarian left and the left and right economically. Clinton won basically every subgroup (as noted, the vote wasn't really that close), but did best with moderates across all dimensions.

I wouldn't call protectionism left wing. It basically works out to cronyism, which is more right-wing.

Clinton got significantly more than that just from that Soros donation of course so exactly how you class "wall street" has a significant effect.

You talk about "unelectable" yet we saw Clinton riding an economically right wing position badly underperform where as Corbyn riding an economically left wing position significant overperform with the biggest growth in vote for Labour since 1946 dispite almost universal hostility from the media and the right wing elements in his own party.

I think that just highlights all this talk of "extreme left" as a fantasy cooked up by the establishment, people like Corbyn and Sanders are nothing close to that, both are ultimately pushing more for a rollback of the low tax neoliberalism that's come to dominate the US/UK since the time of Thatcher and Reagan. Were they around in the 1960's they'd be considered economically unremarkable yet I think this shift has been very well disguised in the minds of a lot of people who look back to that era as a golden age.

Protectionism is I'd agree not automatically left or right wing, it depends very heavily on how its implemented.
 
No, a problem doesn't have to be a crisis to be handled. But at the current level, it's pretty insignificant and not growing. I have no problem with calling out stupidity where it arises, but I do think the media coverage and general attention is wildly out of proportion to the level of the threat.



It's a good point, but I don't think it's addressing the actual argument. People for the most part aren't saying, "right-wing identity politics is worse so left-wing identity politics is cool;" they're saying, "identity politics is more of a problem on the right so that's where energy spent fighting it should primarily be focused."
Fair enough. All in all we're not so far apart on this issue.

I'm cool with our exchange as we agree there are elements on the left who are anything but liberal. As viewpoints and memberships constantly change it's next to impossible to nail down the degree of the problem so I don't see a need to try to hash that out.
 
Clinton got significantly more than that just from that Soros donation of course so exactly how you class "wall street" has a significant effect.

I was looking at institutional investments. There were two big donations from individuals--one of whom was Soros. I'm not sure how this is supposed to make your case.

You talk about "unelectable" yet we saw Clinton riding an economically right wing position badly underperform where as Corbyn riding an economically left wing position significant overperform with the biggest growth in vote for Labour since 1946 dispite almost universal hostility from the media and the right wing elements in his own party.

But factually, it is not true that Clinton was riding an economically right-wing position in the general (very much the opposite). And she did not badly underperform. In fact, a generic Republican would have been favored to win both the general election and popular vote.

I think that just highlights all this talk of "extreme left" as a fantasy cooked up by the establishment, people like Corbyn and Sanders are nothing close to that, both are ultimately pushing more for a rollback of the low tax neoliberalism that's come to dominate the US/UK since the time of Thatcher and Reagan. Were they around in the 1960's they'd be considered economically unremarkable yet I think this shift has been very well disguised in the minds of a lot of people who look back to that era as a golden age.

For the most part, this is false. We've moved right economically in that period not because Democrats have moved right but because Democrats have lost important elections and Republicans have moved far to the right. Sanders was certainly further left than LBJ or Kennedy (both of whom were considered the equivalent of neoliberal sellouts in their own time, of course, as was FDR going further back).
 
But factually, it is not true that Clinton was riding an economically right-wing position in the general (very much the opposite). And she did not badly underperform. In fact, a generic Republican would have been favored to win both the general election and popular vote.

For the most part, this is false. We've moved right economically in that period not because Democrats have moved right but because Democrats have lost important elections and Republicans have moved far to the right. Sanders was certainly further left than LBJ or Kennedy (both of whom were considered the equivalent of neoliberal sellouts in their own time, of course, as was FDR going further back).

I'd agree the movement has been most significant under the republicans/tories but the democrats/labour from the 90's onwards have very much bent to it.

Compared to expectation of the establishmen/media who called Sanders "unelectable" Clinton did very clearly underperform whilst Corbyn did very clearly over perform. The obvious explanation being such talk is not a reflection of reality but rather attempted manipulation to achieve their desired outcome.
 
I'm plenty objective, thanks. I know enough about citations, how they're procured, and what they mean to not be bamboozled by someone whose argument is - literally - ''it's over 9000.''

It'd be a fun game to see what would be the best university in Canada in which he'd have the highest citation count among psychologists. I've checked 7 so far. No dice.

Number of citations is a weird metric though, especially following the replication crisis. John Bargh probably has thousand of citations but if few of his original studies stand up to scrutiny then those are meaningless anyway.

I have a degree in psych and have done a decent amount of supplementary reading trying to figure out what to pursue in grad school. I can name probably 50+ psychologists off the top of my head, for whatever that's worth, but I'd never heard Peterson's name before the present debacle (though I did have a single paper of his saved, I had never read it). I doubt anyone not associated with UofT knew much about him.

But I also don't think that matters. Not all psychologists frequently cited have expertise that allows them to make informed commentary on current affairs. Probably better to look more at his arguments and ditch this convoluted attempt to establish an arbitrary heuristic for when appealing to authority is okay.

(Not targeting you btw, just quoted you because your posts on the topic were easiest to read.)
 
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For the record I never got much into personality psych, though every undergrad encounters the Big Five traits at some point. I was under the impression that Walter Mischel (the Marshmallow test guy) had exploded personality psych in the 80s (as documented in Ross and Nisbett's book The Person and the Situation). Still not sure how it managed to recover its legitimacy after that.

My skepticism was pretty hastily triggered when I found out Peterson stacked evolutionary psych and personality psych. I still like him though.
 
There is a fascinating critique of Dr. Peterson made by his former Department Chair who does not support what he is currently doing/saying. A man who championed his early work and pushed to get Dr. Peterson hired and promoted over the disagreements of his peers. A professor who has known Dr. Peterson for 20 years.

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/201...gest-supporter-now-i-think-hes-dangerous.html

Some interesting quotes:

But, as reported by that one astute student, Jordan presented conjecture as statement of fact. I expressed my concern to him about this a number of times, and each time Jordan agreed. He acknowledged the danger of such practices, but then continued to do it again and again, as if he could not control himself.

Jordan has a complex relationship to freedom of speech. He wants to effectively silence those left-wing professors by keeping students away from their courses because the students may one day become “anarchical social revolutionaries” who may bring upon us disruption and violence. At the same time he was advocating cutting funds to universities that did not protect free speech on their campuses.

He has done disservice to the professoriate. He cheapens the intellectual life with self-serving misrepresentations of important ideas and scientific findings. He has also done disservice to the institutions which have supported him. He plays to “victimhood” but also plays the victim.
Jordan’s immediate response was a flurry of angry, abusive, self-righteous tweets, some in response to Mishra’s questioning Jordan’s induction into an Indigenous tribe by referring to it as a “claim.”

Jordan called Mishra a “sanctimonious prick,” “an arrogant, racist son of a bitch,” “a peddler of nasty, underhanded innuendo,” said “fuck you” and expressed a desire to slap him. (As it turns out Jordan had not been inducted into that tribe, and his publisher removed references to the claim in promotional materials as reported in The Walrus by Robert Jago in “The Story Behind Jordan Peterson’s Indigenous Identity.”)

Jordan exhibits a great range of emotional states, from anger and abusive speech to evangelical fierceness, ministerial solemnity and avuncular charm. It is misleading to come to quick conclusions about who he is, and potentially dangerous if you have seen only the good and thoughtful Jordan, and not seen the bad.

I was warned by a number of writers, editors and friends that this article would invite backlash, primarily from his young male acolytes, and I was asked to consider whether publishing it was worth it. More than anything, that convinced me it should be published.

I discovered while writing this essay a shocking climate of fear among women writers and academics who would not attach their names to opinions or data which were critical of Jordan. All of Jordan’s critics receive nasty feedback from some of his followers, but women writers have felt personally threatened.

When someone claims to be acting from the highest principles for the good of others, there is no reason to assume that the person’s motives are genuine. People motivated to make things better usually aren’t concerned with changing other people — or if they are they take responsibility for making the same changes to themselves (and first).”

I did not write this, although I might have. It’s taken from 12 Rules for Life. These are Jordan’s words.

The whole thing is fascinating, I could have quoted the entire thing but I recommend reading it.
 
There is a fascinating critique of Dr. Peterson made by his former Department Chair who does not support what he is currently doing/saying.

Since discussions of Peterson have become so hostile, it's kind of taken the fun out of discussing his ideas and arguments, so I don't post much in these threads anymore. However, since I found that piece that you've linked to there to be one of the more offensive anti-Peterson pieces that I've read simply because that person should know more about how to conduct a responsible critique, I'm going to make an exception.

My general response to that "fascinating critique" is that it's nothing but vague nonsense masquerading as insight and critique with a huge helping of bald denunciations of which that guy should be ashamed. Sadly, that's the way a lot of people in academia work, and I have zero doubts about how awesome and righteous that guy thinks he is for having penned that embarassment.

The first red flag: He starts off talking about how Peterson's output is "voluminous" and that that voluminous output is "filled with oversimplifications which obscure or misrepresent complex matters." The oversimplification charge is the lazy man's way of avoiding the actual, responsible, intellectual effort of arguing; instead of having to demonstrate errors and produce counterarguments, you can just call that which you disagree with an oversimplification and you (can convince your arrogant self as well as the uninformed that you) have just "proven" that (a) they're stupid and (b) you're smart because you can (by implication, not by demonstration) understand (yet can't/don't explain) the complexity.

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Despite that enormous early red flag, I still went ahead and read the whole thing. Some thoughts as I was going along:

1) "Even though there was nothing contentious about his research, he objected in principle to having it reviewed by the university research ethics committee, whose purpose is to protect the safety and well-being of experiment subjects. He requested a meeting with the committee."

I totally understand where he's coming from. There's nothing more frustrating in a research environment than having to deal with bureaucrats who don't know what you're doing passing judgment on it as if they know better than you. And I think it's eminently reasonable to want to have a face-to-face meeting with the people who are going to be passing judgment on you and your work.

2) "As the undergraduate chair, I read all teaching reviews. His were, for the most part, excellent and included eyebrow-raising comments such as “This course has changed my life.” One student, however, hated the course because he did not like “delivered truths.” Curious, I attended many of Jordan’s lectures to see for myself [...] The class loved him. But, as reported by that one astute student, Jordan presented conjecture as statement of fact."

Again, no examples, no context. Just vague denunciation. And Peterson is allegedly the one with the "questionable relationship to truth [and] intellectual integrity"?

3) "What was off-putting was his tendency to be categorical about his positions, reminiscent of his lectures where he presented personal theories as absolute truths. I rarely challenged him. He overwhelmed challenges with volumes of information that were hard to process and evaluate."

Yet again, vague denunciations are taking the place of contextualized examples. Still, it's worth pointing out that describing a person as being confident enough in their "personal theories" to think that they're true is not the same as describing a person incapable of modifying the personal theories that they thought were true in light of new evidence/arguments. But given this guy's questionable relationship to truth and intellectual integrity, it's not surprising that he's continuing to weaponize vagueness.

Added to which, I like how at first he complained that Peterson's work consisted of volumes of oversimplifications - the implication being that he's trying to con his way out of arguments - yet here he's complaining that what Peterson offers is volumes of information, and information that's "hard to process," at that - the implication being that Peterson isn't trying to con his way out of arguments but is just really good at arguing because he knows what he's talking about and never oversimplifies things and that he has trouble "processing" the complex information and arguments Peterson presents.

But, again, it's Peterson who has the questionable relationship to truth and intellectual integrity. Gotcha.

4) "I have a trans daughter."

Bury the lead much?

5) "It was an abuse of the trust that comes with his professorial position, which I had fought for, to have misrepresented gender science by dismissing the evidence that the relationship of gender to biology is not absolute."

The only abuse here is this moron misrepresenting Peterson's position on "gender science" by claiming that it's Peterson's position that the relationship of gender to biology is "absolute" when his actual position is that according to the data - and let's not overlook the fact that between the two of these people the guy who allegedly has the questionable relationship to the truth is the only one citing any evidence even though you'd think he'd want to cite evidence in his favor as well as cite Peterson's dismissal(s) of said evidence - there is a 99.7% correlation.



6) "He could have spared his students and chosen to sidestep the issue and refer to them by their names."

Did he forget all the faux compliments he'd been giving Peterson about how all of his students love him? To have avoided tackling something he believed was wrong head-on may have spared this douchebag's feelings but it would've been a disservice to his students.

7) "Jordan has studied and understands authoritarian demagogic leaders. They know how to attract a following. In an interview with Ethan Klein in an H3 Podcast, Jordan describes how such leaders learn to repeat those things which make the crowd roar, and not repeat those things that do not. The crowd roared the first time Jordan opposed the so-called “transgender agenda.” Perhaps they would roar again, whether it made sense or not."

The key phrase here is "whether it made sense or not." The dictionary definition of a demagogue is "a political leader who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument." Peterson uses rational argument first and foremost, and, to a great many people, what he says makes a hell of a lot of sense, and it's that that gets the roars.

8) "Calling Marxism, a respectable political and philosophical tradition, “murderous” conflates it with the perversion of those ideas in Stalinist Russia and elsewhere where they were."

And Marxism is respectable according to whom? On what grounds? This guy is smuggling in his own beliefs as if they're incontrovertible truths. Wait a minute, why does that sound familiar? Wasn't someone complaining recently about making absolute truths out of personal opinions?

9) "Jordan has a complex relationship to freedom of speech. He wants to effectively silence those left-wing professors by keeping students away from their courses."

"Effectively silence" isn't the same thing as McCarthyism, which is what this guy compared Peterson's project to, since not signing up for classes that shove Marxism and postmodernism down students' throats isn't taking away the university platform on which professors can preach that shit. He's just trying to inform consumers of university courses as to what it is that they'll be consuming if they sign up for class A as opposed to class B. The professors wouldn't be silenced any more than company A "silences" company B by being more popular and profitable. It's just the free market of ideas. And that's the way it should be.

Incidentally, I was so surprised teaching 18-year-old university students this last term and hearing so many of them complain about how all of their courses cover the exact same theories and theorists and how all of the professors think the exact same things. Forget about the merit of those theories/theorists, which is a separate conversation. I was astonished enough at how perceptive these students were. Yet it's obviously a crime to offer explanations as to why all of their courses cover the exact same theories and theorists and why all of their professors think the exact same things and why it might be a good idea to look for other theories, theorists, and professors if for no other reason just for some balance and to be able to dialectically work your way through competing theories and ideas and arguments. Give me a fucking break.

10) "In the end, Jordan postponed his plan to blacklist courses after many of his colleagues signed a petition objecting to it. He said it was too polarizing. Curiously, that had never stopped him before. He appears to thrive on polarization. I have no idea why he did that."

Despite his having talked about it countless times. Clearly this guy is well up on Peterson's ideas, arguments, and positions and obviously in the best position to critique Peterson's ideas, arguments, and positions.

11) "He has done disservice to the professoriate. He cheapens the intellectual life with self-serving misrepresentations of important ideas and scientific findings."

Whoa, when did he stop talking about Peterson and start talking about himself?

12) "There was no reason to think he would lose his job."

Seriously?

13) "Jordan is seen here to be emotionally explosive when faced with legitimate criticism."

Once again, "legitimate" according to whom? On what grounds? Because it's critical and bolsters this guy's own beliefs it's by definition legitimate?

14) "I was warned by a number of writers, editors and friends that this article would invite backlash, primarily from his young male acolytes, and I was asked to consider whether publishing it was worth it. More than anything, that convinced me it should be published. I discovered while writing this essay a shocking climate of fear among women writers and academics who would not attach their names to opinions or data which were critical of Jordan. All of Jordan’s critics receive nasty feedback from some of his followers, but women writers have felt personally threatened."

Oh, the irony. The guy who spends an entire article making fun of Peterson's playing the victim shtick and making fun of him as "a true warrior, of whatever," is now playing the victim warrior card. Come on, man. How can anyone take this shit seriously?
 
He did an IAMA on reddit today.


A lot of his answers got downvoted to oblivion, specially when he tried to repel someone who objected to his economically illiterate claims on women joining the workforce and the "golden era" of households being supported by one individual.
 
Sort of like the entire field of women's and gender studies?
Sort of, one of the things the author is criticizing Peterson for is doing the same things he finds repulsive in other groups.

So yeah, you got it.
 
one of the things the author is criticizing Peterson for is doing the same things he finds repulsive in other groups.

Hard to celebrate exposing a hypocrite when you yourself are a hypocrite. If "You're just as bad as me!" is the "victory" that you get to "celebrate," then it's a Pyrrhic victory at best. And that's assuming, of course, that you actually think that anything in that article warrants celebration as any kind of victory.
 
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