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Social Jordan Peterson Savagely Rips Apart New APA Guides on Toxic Mascuilinity

But isn't Peterson all about men having outlets for their emotions? His book, his website and his entire enterprise are about "helping men." He just doesn't say the phrases "emotional self-restraint is good" or "stoicism is what we should shoot for."

Also, can anyone really disagree with this?:

The main thrust of the subsequent research is that traditional masculinity—marked by stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression—is, on the whole, harmful.

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/01/ce-corner.aspx

The competitiveness part is the only one that's kind of iffy. But I really don't think they mean "get rid of sports, contests, or awards" but rather something like "obsessively comparing yourself to others and trying to be better than them."

There is a logical step from one to the other, but I think the step is SO important that someone like Peterson absolutely is aware of it, he just knows what his audience wants to hear.

Sure you can disagree on many levels. For one thing, individual and social goals are not aligned. For example, an aggressive man may kill other people, be sexually aggressive, and spawn a bunch of kids. Another man may fail to find a mate, but nonetheless devote his life to charity. Societies will normally adore the second guy—- let’s call him useful chump—and hate the first guy. But there’s no objective, apolitical way to decide between them from the perspective of individual psychology. Lots of kids and an early death is, from many perspectives, perfectly rational. Pretending that being aggressive, violent, and competitive are always negatives is premised on a certain contestable vision of what it meant for an individual human to flourish. That vision, in psychology as a profession, focuses narrowly on the avoidance of social problems. Avoiding social problems is not, however, necessarily ideal for individuals.

Put another way, men normally tend to take more risks and get bigger rewards and bigger losses. It’s a legit strategy.
 
Sure you can disagree on many levels. For one thing, individual and social goals are not aligned. For example, an aggressive man may kill other people, be sexually aggressive, and spawn a bunch of kids. Another man may fail to find a mate, but nonetheless devote his life to charity. Societies will normally adore the second guy—- let’s call him useful chump—and hate the first guy. But there’s no objective, apolitical way to decide between them from the perspective of individual psychology. Lots of kids and an early death is, from many perspectives, perfectly rational. Pretending that being aggressive, violent, and competitive are always negatives is premised on a certain contestable vision of what it meant for an individual human to flourish. That vision, in psychology as a profession, focuses narrowly on the avoidance of social problems. Avoiding social problems is not, however, necessarily ideal for individuals.

Put another way, men normally tend to take more risks and get bigger rewards and bigger losses. It’s a legit strategy.

You think someone who devotes their entire life to charity is a chump?
 
I think you are misreading him. He is quoting two different things. First, the APA’s claim that “traditional masculinity ideology has been shown to ... negatively influence mental health.” That’s what it says.

Second, that they are less likely to seek mental health treatment. That’s a different issue, and Peterson has a legit concern that a discipline which pretty much works to impose a standing indictment against ‘excessive masculinity’ is healing insult on injury when it bitches about why men don’t do go to psychologists, and fails to consider why the academic discipline is primarily full of women — currently a three-to-one disparity in graduate school, which is flat out incredible (and, as Peterson says, goes ignored, as if it were not significant).

I don't think I'm misreading him at all. He was very clear that he was looking at that phrasing and assigning an interpretation to it.

He began his assessment as follows:

We’ll begin with this quote: “Research suggests that socialization practices that teach boys from an early age to be self-reliant, strong, and to minimize and manage their problems on their own yield adult men who are less willing to seek mental health treatment,”...

Here's what the APA actually says

Despite these problems, many boys and men do not receive the help they need. Research suggests that socialization practices that teach boys from an early age to be self-reliant, strong, and to minimize and manage their problems on their own yield adult men who are less willing to seek mental health treatment . Further complicating their ability to receive help, many men report experiencing gender bias in therapy, which may impact diagnosis and treatment...

The APA's section is about how psychotherapists need to recognize that some boys and men do not seek or receive treatment when they need it and that they experience gender bias when they do finally reach out. The APA thinks that psychotherapists need to more sensitive to the needs of boys and men starting with the reality that they are not likely to seek mental health treatment when they view themselves as self-reliant.

For Peterson to claim that this is an insinuation that self-reliant boys and men have a "destroyed" mental health state is 180 degrees from what is actually being asserted.
 
You think someone who devotes their entire life to charity is a chump?

Could be, absolutely. Might not be, absolutely. Very often you see people turn to social causes because they are bitterly disappointed in their personal lives. So they rescue animals, give aid to so and so, etc., as a way of building up an alternative source of self worth.

In no way am I saying that’s true of all or most people, but sure, just like the spinsters who commonly used to devote their unwanted lives to the Holy Church, it’s often pretty sad.

Again, in no way saying you shouldn’t devote yourself to such endeavors. Just that for some people they (like alcohol abuse) become an out.
 
Also consistent with what I think is a standard outrage piece, is that in his comments about fatherlessness he completely fails to make mention of the research that discusses the role of male role models as a mitigating factor on fatherlessness.

I can't imagine why he would disregard that when it's
I think if you look at what Peterson did with this is the "fighting anti-male bias"... though he talks about that a lot wasn't the focus of this piece this time at least.

I liked Peterson when I first heard him with Rogan but the guy for me is more and more falling into the "it feels like he writes everything with a thesaurus next to him just to sound smarter but it just makes everything he say way harder to understand" trap.

I see lawyers do it a ton, especially the ones that are sole practitioners without a legal assistant or paralegal to rein them in.

My opinion on Peterson is that he began as someone speaking about legitimate issues in a frank way that resonated with an audience. Over time, he's morphed into someone who is telling his audience what they want hear. Like a politician who gradually suborns his principles to those of his donors.
 
Pan, you are reading from the wrong part of the document. Start at the beginning, and look at the language I quoted.
 
He doesn't really have a point here at all. Traits that are associated with "toxic masculinity" tend to be traits that stem from a lack of understanding of masculinity. If anything, not having a positive male role model (or any male role model) would increase the likelihood a young man not understanding what proper masculinity looks like.

I think people seem to be offended by the term "toxic masculinity" because they are associating it so directly with healthy masculinity. I think that is what Jordan Peterson is doing here.

For example, good fathers don't teach their kids that catcalling women in the street makes them more of a man. But kids with no positive male role models may think that it shows machismo. That is where the toxic part comes in.
I agree with everything you said. Good post. But I think that there's a trend towards all traditional healthy masculine traits being looped in with toxic masculinity, which sucks my big hairy man balls.
 
That would be a blatant mischaracterization of what he himself quoted.... If only that was what he himself quoted and responded to... Which it wasn't.

This is what he wrote...
My specific point is that he is mischaracterizing what the APA is saying. From the exact same section, immediately following the quoted passage:

For instance, several studies have identified that men, despite being 4 times more likely than women to die of suicide worldwide (DeLeo et al., 2013), are less likely to be diagnosed with internalizing disorders such as depression, in part because internalizing disorders do not conform to traditional gender role stereotypes about men’s emotionality (for a review, see Addis, 2008). Instead, because of socialized tendencies to externalize emotional distress, boys and men may be more likely to be diagnosed with externalizing disorders (e.g., conduct disorder and substance use disorders) (Cochran & Rabinowitz, 2000). Indeed, therapists’ gender role stereotypes about boys’ externalizing behaviors may explain why boys are disproportionately diagnosed with ADHD compared to girls (Bruchmüller, Margaf, & Schneider, 2012). Other investigations have identified systemic gender bias toward adult men in psychotherapy (Mahalik et al., 2012) and in other helping services such as domestic abuse shelters (Douglas & Hines, 2011). Broader societal factors, such as the stigma of seeking psychological help, also negatively impact men’s help-seeking behaviors and the subsequent delivery of psy-

The entire section is about the importance of recognizing that specific mental health issues that boys and men will face.

It doesn't allege that men's mental health is destroyed. It states that the socializing the men face is not reflected in the type of mental health treatment that they subseequently receive. And the APA squarely puts the blame on anti-male bias in how the mental health community perceives men and boys.

Peterson is clearly misrepresenting the intent of the passage. I linked the entire APA section if someone wants to read it but I'll drop it in here as well.

Boys and men have historically been the focus of psychological research and practice as a normative referent for behavior rather than as gendered human beings (O’Neil & Renzulli, 2013; Smiler, 2004). In the past 30 years, researchers and theorists have placed greater emphasis on ecological and sociological factors influencing the psychology of boys and men, culminating in what has been termed the New Psychology of Men (Levant & Pollack, 1995). For instance, socialization for conforming to traditional masculinity ideology has been shown to limit males’ psychological development, constrain their behavior, result in gender role strain and gender role conflict (Pleck, 1981, 1995; O’Neil, 2008; O’Neil & Renzulli, 2013), and negatively influence mental health (e.g., O’Neil, 2008, 2013, 2015) and physical health (Courtenay, 2011; Gough & Robertson, 2017). Indeed, boys and men are overrepresented in a variety of psychological and social problems. For example, boys are disproportionately represented among schoolchildren with learning difficulties (e.g., lower standardized test scores) and behavior problems (e.g., bullying, school suspensions, aggression; Biederman et al., 2005; Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 2015). Likewise, men are overrepresented in prisons, are more likely than women to commit violent crimes, and are at greatest risk of being a victim of violent crime (e.g., homicide, aggravated assault; Federal Bureau of Investigation, 2015).

Despite these problems, many boys and men do not receive the help they need (Addis & Mahalik, 2003; Hammer, Vogel, & Heimerdinger-Edwards, 2013; Knopf, Park, & Maulye, 2008). Research suggests that socialization practices that teach boys from an early age to be self-reliant, strong, and to minimize and manage their problems on their own (Pollack, 1995) yield adult men who are less willing to seek mental health treatment (Addis & Mahalik, 2003; Wong, Ho, Wang, & Miller, 2017). Further complicating their ability to receive help, many men report experiencing gender bias in therapy (Mahalik et al., 2012), which may impact diagnosis and treatment (Cochran & Rabinowitz, 2000). For instance, several studies have identified that men, despite being 4 times more likely than women to die of suicide worldwide (DeLeo et al., 2013), are less likely to be diagnosed with internalizing disorders such as depression, in part because internalizing disorders do not conform to traditional gender role stereotypes about men’s emotionality (for a review, see Addis, 2008). Instead, because of socialized tendencies to externalize emotional distress, boys and men may be more likely to be diagnosed with externalizing disorders (e.g., conduct disorder and substance use disorders) (Cochran & Rabinowitz, 2000). Indeed, therapists’ gender role stereotypes about boys’ externalizing behaviors may explain why boys are disproportionately diagnosed with ADHD compared to girls (Bruchmüller, Margaf, & Schneider, 2012). Other investigations have identified systemic gender bias toward adult men in psychotherapy (Mahalik et al., 2012) and in other helping services such as domestic abuse shelters (Douglas & Hines, 2011). Broader societal factors, such as the stigma of seeking psychological help, also negatively impact men’s help-seeking behaviors and the subsequent delivery of psychological services (Hammer et al., 2013; Mackenzie, Gekoski, & Knox, 2006; Mahalik et al., 2012).

In addition to specific mental health concerns and help-seeking behaviors, a combination of biological, social, and economic factors may have unique consequences for men’s physical health and well-being. For most leading causes of death in the United States and in every age group, boys and men have higher death rates than girls and women (Courtenay, 2011; Gough & Robertson, 2017). For example, despite men having greater socioeconomic advantages than women in every ethnic group, the age-adjusted death rate has been found to be at least 40% higher for men than women (Hoyart & Xu, 2012). Sex differences in risk-taking are largely responsible for this discrepancy, but all of these problems can be exacerbated by social identity statuses such as race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or social class (Courtenay, 2011).

In summary, contemporary studies indicate that the physical and mental health concerns of boys and men are associated with complex and diverse economic, biological, developmental, psychological, and sociocultural factors. Many of these factors also intersect with men’s multiple identities (Gallardo & McNeill, 2009; Liang, Salcedo, & Miller, 2011; Schwing, Wong, & Fann, 2013; Shields, 2008), indicating that understanding how boys and men experience masculinity is an important cultural competency. The psychology of men, however, is rarely taught at either undergraduate or graduate levels (O’Neil & Renzulli, 2013), including multicultural counseling courses (for a review, see Liu, 2005). Research further suggests that having adequate knowledge of men’s gender role socialization has important implications for psychological practice with boys (Bruchmüller et al., 2012) and men (Mahalik et al., 2012). Therefore, compelling evidence exists supporting the need for guidelines for psychologists who provide services to boys and men. In the sections to follow, specific guidelines and additional rationale are presented.
 
Pan, you are reading from the wrong part of the document. Start at the beginning, and look at the language I quoted.
I'm reading the accurate part of the document. I cited the entire APA section in a subsequent post.

My issue with the Peterson section is that his op-ed mischaracterizes that section of the APA's document. That's why I linked the APA's report. If someone reads the section that Peterson quoted from, it is clearly about the failings of the mental health field to address the needs of men and boys. Peterson's claim that it's an insinuation of failed mental states in boys and men is a mischaracterization. And one that's only apparent from reading the relevant APA section in its entirety.
 
The code doesn't specify what pronouns you have to use.
TO be fair I don't think that was his problem.

I think the problem he had was you could get spanked by the long arm of the law for using one that the person didn't want you to use even if you didn't know what they wanted to be called.
 
I agree with everything you said. Good post. But I think that there's a trend towards all traditional healthy masculine traits being looped in with toxic masculinity, which sucks my big hairy man balls.

It's because any traditionally masculine trait taken to an extreme will become unhealthy. Of course feminists will only look at a masculine trait at it's extreme and therefore automatically label it as negative and toxic.
 
"And these APA guidelines, y'know, they're not too good!

Lotta problems can come from this!

And you can laugh, but it's not a joke - there's no foolin' around here!"
 
TO be fair I don't think that was his problem.

I think the problem he had was you could get spanked by the long arm of the law for using one that the person didn't want you to use even if you didn't know what they wanted to be called.
Well, we're at week 77 since it passed, and here's the tally so far:

0
 
I think people seem to be offended by the term "toxic masculinity" because FEMINISTS are associating it so directly with healthy masculinity.
.

I fixed that for you.

Approaching the opposite sex with confidence, rough-play, not letting emotions get in the way of the task at hand, and many other healthy male traits are very often called "toxic masculinity." Mostly because men are, on average, better at these things and it gives them advantages that feminists are jealous of.
 
It's because any traditionally masculine trait taken to an extreme will become unhealthy. Of course feminists will only look at a masculine trait at it's extreme and therefore automatically label it as negative and toxic.

libs complain about toxic masculinity but dont want to talk about toxic femininity. toxic women are the reason why there are toxic men
 
Its as if someone dropped a batch of stupid in the water supply...how the fuck did this shit spread so far so fast...
 
Ah, was about to make this thread.

Guidelines are a crock of shit and Peterson is on point here. Probably the first of this National Post column he's been doing that needs to be read.

Also, nice to see @Zankou posting again.
 
I personally have been accused of being a racist when I've kicked out Mexicans, Natives, or Black guys by the white college kid... when I look and have been mistaken for being Samoan, Arab, Native, and Mexican myself.
Arab? Really? The others I can see for sure.
 
What the OP's quote highlights for me is that a lot of the time the liberal/conservative divide is mostly a sideshow, the elephant in the room is wealth inequality. Single parent families are much more likely to be poor so you both get causation and correlation in a lot of other factors likely to give negative outcomes to children.

Honestly I think the idea that aggressive competitiveness is "under threat" is utter nonsense, in reality its the overriding mind-set of the current neoliberal era.
 
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