Jordan Peterson or Sam Harris - Who do you prefer?

Who do you prefer?


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Good lord, both are really sloppy thinkers and almost completely devoid of insight. But, despite being known for his emotional flaws, Peterson is actually quite a bit better than Harris at holding to objectivity and not letting his temper lead him down irrational lines of thought. Harris, however, is a lot more concise.

Of the two, I'd rather listen to Harris. But, if I were to read both, I'd probably come away with more from Peterson.
 
Harris, and it’s not even remotely close. Harris is a super smart guy. Peterson not so much.
 
No, the article does not give any valid examples of people being negatively impacted by misunderstandings of Peterson's messages. Every time it attempts to attribute something seemingly malicious or intentionally dishonest to him, it misrepresents him in the same way the author acknowledged that other critics have.

Example:
PETERSON: I did compare them to Mao … I was comparing them to the left-wing totalitarians. And I do believe

they are left-wing totalitarians.

NEWMAN: Under Mao millions of people died!

PETERSON: Right!

NEWMAN: I mean there’s no comparison between Mao and a trans activist, is there?

PETERSON: Why not?

NEWMAN: Because trans activists aren’t killing millions of people!

PETERSON: The philosophy that’s guiding their utterances is the same philosophy.

NEWMAN: The consequences are …

PETERSON: Not yet!

NEWMAN: You’re saying that trans activists, …

PETERSON: No!

NEWMAN: Could leads to the deaths of millions of people.

PETERSON: No, I’m saying that the philosophy that drives their utterances is the same philosophy that already has driven us to the deaths of millions of people.

NEWMAN: Okay. Tell us how that philosophy is in any way comparable.

PETERSON: Sure. That’s no problem. The first thing is that their philosophy presumes that group identity is paramount. That’s the fundamental philosophy that drove the Soviet Union and Maoist China. And it’s the fundamental philosophy of the left-wing activists. It’s identity politics. It doesn’t matter who you are as an individual, it matters who you are in terms of your group identity.

While Cathy Newman was repeatedly unfair to Peterson’s views throughout the rest of the interview, here she was perfectly right to be confused: what Peterson is saying makes no sense. He wonders how there could be any difference between transgender activists and Mao’s China, then is told that the difference is millions of deaths, then denies that transgender activists are going to cause millions of deaths, then says they follow a totalitarian philosophy that drives people to mass murder. The reason he’s stuck here is that there’s no evidence the Canadian Human Rights Act is about to bring us a gulag archipelago, but that’s what his grandiose statements about left-wing totalitarianism imply will happen. So he must either allege Alberta is about to get its own Great Leap Forward or draw a distinction between Mao’s Red Guards and the University of Toronto LGBTQ center, neither of which he wants to commit to. So we get another heaping dish of Peterson waffle.

The second sentence by the author is a complete lie and frames Peterson in a dishonest way. He did not "wonder how there could be any difference." He very was very obviously warning against the danger of elevation of group identity over individuality by pointing out the extreme end of where those ideologies can lead. He doesn't say the people are the same. He says the thought process behind their actions is parallel. This is something he does frequently, and it seems to really upset SJWs. Idk if they are intentionally doing it or not, but they're reading something between the lines that isn't there

The article is mediocre and if your answer to everything is "hurr durr you must not have read the article because it's right" there is no point talking to you.

numbers and stats were given in the article you did not read showing the specific wrong think men come to from reading peterson.

why are you not addressing those?
 
Peterson is terrible. Got slaughtered by Zizek in a debate and can't be taken seriously.
 
numbers and stats were given in the article you did not read showing the specific wrong think men come to from reading peterson.

why are you not addressing those?
Numbers and stats about people misunderstanding him and its effect the world? What are these stats?

Are you talking about YouTube comments?
<Dany07>
 
This is outstanding, explains the trouble I've always had with Peterson.

He talks a lot without ever actually saying anything, and when he does make points they are often so obvious we would assume everyone knew that already.

"Again: it’s not that he’s wrong when he says that law has a disciplining function, or that too much law is stifling, while not enough is anarchy. But all this stuff about “intrapsychic spirits” and “the flow of spiritual water” is just said, never clearly explained, let alone proved. If you asked him to explain it, you would just get a long string of additional abstract terms. (Ironically, Maps of Meaning contains neither maps nor meaning.) Sociologist C. Wright Mills, in critically examining “grand theorists” in his field who used verbosity to cover for a lack of profundity, pointed out that people respond positively to this kind of writing because they see it as “a wondrous maze, fascinating precisely because of its often splendid lack of intelligibility.”


glad you liked it. its the best one ive read to date also. there was another but i cant find it anymore. it was an interview with one of his colleagues at university explaining why he grew mistrustful of peterson over time.

this is hearsay but i feel it matches peterson and what i can make of his personality. peterson has had some kind of spiritual awakening (these are common and legitimate regardless of their true nature) but it turned peterson into a bit of a zealot which is also common it turns out. he received complaints for making baseless claims in his classes and defended himself with colleagues as having come to a profound insight that is life changing and that people who criticize him just do not understand. over time he became increasingly immune to any criticism from faculty.

he also told this colleague that he was on a kind of a mission to save the world from communism and this mission came through dreams.


for me this maps perfectly with what i experience from peterson. he is a smart guy (at least by my estimation) but his convictions run deep emotionally and he sees himself as special.

i have an interest in spiritual experiences. i have read a great deal about them from william james, jung, ken wilbur and many others. when a person has their first spiritual experience, and if it is a radical one, they often make a leap forward out of some kind of suffering and much of their attitude and outlook upon life is transformed for the better. the problem with this is that the new outlook is falsely thought to be worth a hell of a lot more than it really is and is usually received by the person in a way that makes them feel special, better, and different than others.

i see peterson, the way he talks, the mini emotional outbursts that often accompany his language, and that lead men to so many supposed misunderstandings of his speech, his arrogance in speaking of things outside of his wheelhouse but with great authority, his notion that he has seen something that nobody else has seen (as he told his father) his immunity to criticism through spaghetti speak and aggression, his feeling "chosen" and his general fragility and instability as symptomatic of a person who has had a singular awakening and is making too much of it and of himself.

this tendency is common, even normative, (just look to the early jewish peoples revelations about being the chosen people as an example from history, or modern evangelicals for a contemporary one) but usually a person has a spiritual director to keep their feet on the ground but peterson lacks this help.

peterson is a person with a lot of personal suffering and problems who has found something that helped him but he is not very far along towards stability, does not see his awakening in context historically and is making way too much of it for his or anyone else's good.

as often as not his type gets far worse over time but conversely his type can often mature and deepen and grow in humility and become tempered and less fragile and opinionated. i hope to see the latter from peterson over time.
 
Numbers and stats about people misunderstanding him and its effect the world? What are these stats?

Are you talking about YouTube comments?
<Dany07>
its all in the article you did not read but are refuting vigorously.
 
I was in the audience for that. Peterson failed to do his homework but at the same time Zizek just cannot be contained.
thats very neat to have been there to see that man. explain what you mean about Zizek would you?
 
thats very neat to have been there to see that man. explain what you mean about Zizek would you?
Haha see the tweet I attached. He might be one of the strangest popular intellectuals ever. Bizarre energy and mannerisms, extensive knowledge of international cultural media, and a Lacanian-Hegelian communist... or something.
 
LOL

jordan peterson - lecture incels about life and taking charge - while being a druggie then crying on social media when reaches his breaking point.

Who needs authenticity and integrity when you're preaching to the angry right wing incels.
 
petersons not my cup of tea but he is amzing compared to his fucking snake oil shill of a Daughter she can fuck right off
 
Harris is by far my favorite public intellectual. He has a lot of detractors who make arguments against him that are never compelling. That's what happens when you're not on a team though. It's in his nature to push back against groups he's been loosely aligned with at some point and to speak out against views he doesn't agree with that are held by a large portion of his own audience.

It's the opposite of what virtually everyone else does in the public sphere, and that's the reason you see so many people with strong opinions against him. They generally agreed with him about something at some point in time, then they got their feelings hurt when he poked holes in another view they held. It's the thing I admire most about him. He's committed to being rational and objective in a way I've seen from few others.

Peterson has some things to contribute when it comes to self-help but overall, he's just a dude with depression who comes up with complicated arguments to talk himself into believing things that he's smart enough to know aren't true, in order to make himself feel better about life.
 
I'm surprised people find Peterson's main takeaway points so mundane. Maybe this is an especially reflective crowd, but I don't know many people who could articulate his overall perspective very well about their own lives. Many feel entitled to enjoyment and feeling good, assume they're capable of running the world despite mediocre life accomplishments, and aren't able to make use of basic psychological techniques like habit formation or visualizing their own futures to improve their circumstances.

Even if the style is a little preachy, I think there's some value in hearing those points reiterated from a sensible and modernized intellectual foundation.
 
Peterson is terrible. Got slaughtered by Zizek in a debate and can't be taken seriously.
That debate made it clear that politics is not Peterson's area of expertise and he really doesn't belong in that arena. I don't think "slaughtered" is warranted, though, because neither one of them came out looking particularly good. Peterson earned himself a D and Zizek probably deserves a C+.

Peterson's lack of knowledge about Marxism was atrocious. His only redeeming factor was that he did a so-so job of highlighting good things about capitalism and attempting to offer solutions to problems. His criticism of Marxism was sorely lacking. Zizek on the other hand did a good job of criticizing capitalism, but didn't really offer anything in the way of solutions or making a case for why Marxism is good.
 
where's the D. BOTH option? By many accounts, they've helped thousands of people overcome themselves and improve their lives. That's A-OK in my book!

aside; i'm surprised peterson appeals to right wing men as much as he does, homie sure does cry ALOT. Very emotional homie.
 
Bukowski > Peterson

Both were/are severely clinically depressed, but one of them was also a good writer.
 
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