jiujitsu debait

[Paolo Delutis]

Hey guys and gals

I have a overall jiujitsu related debait idea that i was thinking about recently and was wondering what the sherdog universe thinks.

Topic : Is it more skillful to be attacking in jiujitsu or is it more skillful to be defensive sound.

I believe although defense is very important and integral to your grappling game..i believe the true point of reference for skill lies in the grapplers ability to attack with jiujitsu .. Essentially even a rookie may defend most attacks (subs)by strength or luck..but your not submitting or sweeping anyone without real skill..this is ofcourse my opinion..

Thoughts?

Serious answers please real grapplers preferred.

 

[cheachea]

Personally, I say attacking is more important because even if you only know 1 takedown and a handful of submissions you’ll still have the advantage over an unskilled / untrained opponent in real life.

 

[biscuitsbrah]

If you can attack you can probably defend. Defense comes first

 

[jack36767]

*debate

Why not both

 

[MacDuffle]

grab your right ankle with your right hand
grab your left ankle with your left hand
roll in a circle

no can defend

 

[ArtemV]

I think attacking, a lot of guys have really sound defense to every submission/pass and sweep you know. So, to work past each of these things is huge at the highest level.

 

[rmongler]

I think attacking, a lot of guys have really sound defense to every submission/pass and sweep you know. So, to work past each of these things is huge at the highest level.

Well you can look at it the other way; you should be able to attack with a select few focuses you're really good at, but you need to be able to defend against everything.

 

[Calibur]

One of my favorite quotes on this debate came from Sherdog. @Dirty Holt I think.

In a battle, if you have a choice between a Sword and a Shield, choose the sword.

A man with a sword has the means to win. A man with a shield is just waiting to die.

Something like that.

Yeah. I choose offense.

 

[ArtemV]

Well you can look at it the other way; you should be able to attack with a select few focuses you're really good at, but you need to be able to defend against everything.

Exactly, I think they weigh 50/50 with both sides. It is difficult to say that either one of them is more important, or requires more skill. Defenses get countered... counters get defended...

 

[berimBOWLoh]

One of my favorite quotes on this debate came from Sherdog. @Dirty Holt I think.

In a battle, if you have a choice between a Sword and a Shield, choose the sword.

A man with a sword has the means to win. A man with a shield is just waiting to die.

Something like that.

Yeah. I choose offense.

sword and shield combo is better than a 2 handed sword. I go out like a Spartan.

 

[Cappy Goodtime]

Thankfully learning doesn't take place in a vacuum. No one really gets good at attacking without picking up pretty solid defense on the way there.

 

[Evenflow80]

My professor always says even a day 1 white belt can turtle up in the fetal position and even the best black belt can't sub him, the real skill is being able to attack while being able to defend as well. He also says be more wary of a man who has done a single submission 10,000 times than a man who knows a dozen submissions he has only done 100 times.

 

[mattemate]

I kind of see them as the same thing. But I remember marcelo saying when you're defending you're losing

 

[Balto]

In a battle, if you have a choice between a Sword and a Shield, choose the sword.

A man with a sword has the means to win. A man with a shield is just waiting to die.

Shields are pretty good offensively too though. You can bash with them and charge in to grapple. They do a lot of damage when you strike with them.

One of the things I learned from being a teenage martial artist with too much time on his hands: shields are incredibly overpowered in melee combat. You can match up all kinds of weapons, and most have trouble dealing with a shield. I'd probably favor a good shield over a sword in a match up just because the shield is better at attacking than the sword is at defending. A shield + armor makes you nearly invulnerable to a sword.

Swords are surprisingly pretty weak weapons. They lose to armored opponents, shielded opponents, long melee weapons like spears, ranged weapons, etc.

I know none of this is really relevant to the point of the quote. I agree with the point of the quote 100%. I was just looking for an excuse to talk about shields.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

My professor always says even a day 1 white belt can turtle up in the fetal position and even the best black belt can't sub him, the real skill is being able to attack while being able to defend as well. He also says be more wary of a man who has done a single submission 10,000 times than a man who knows a dozen submissions he has only done 100 times.

I hope thats a methaphore, because turtling up without being very very crafty in turtle guard will give you some more 3 secs beofre getting your ass subed by most competent grapplers, I have not yet a sngle day 1 guy who can turtle and avoid being subed by any skill guy.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

me defense inst all that good, but my offense is, I wish I had developed a better defense, as you run vs more skillful players, if you are not good at defense youll get run over.

 

[Evenflow80]

I hope thats a methaphore, because turtling up without being very very crafty in turtle guard will give you some more 3 secs beofre getting your ass subed by most competent grapplers, I have not yet a sngle day 1 guy who can turtle and avoid being subed by any skill guy.

Pretty sure he is saying don't just be a dead fish once you get mounted etc because anyone can do that, even a day 1 white belt.

 

[BJJ_Rage]

Pretty sure he is saying don't just be a dead fish once you get mounted etc because anyone can do that, even a day 1 white belt.

thing is, day 1 white belt turtle vs a black belt wouldnt last longer than 1 sec. I get what he was tryng to say, just dont think ts a good analogy

 

[rmongler]

One of my favorite quotes on this debate came from Sherdog. @Dirty Holt I think.

That was holt yes.

My own perspective on the topic is, i relate it to the kano paradox; 'less deadly techniques are more deadly than deadly techniques, because you can actually train them.'

There is an unspoken corollary to that when you extend the logic; the better your defensive measures, the more deadly things you can train with.

You can have a perfect example of this exact dynamic too. For the longest time, leg locks in general, and heel hooks in particular, were considered verbotten in most bjj circles. People gave various rationalizations for the animus, whether they said it was 'too dangerous', or 'untechnical', or so on. The ultmate result of this was generations of grapplers who ultimately hamstrung themselves; not as great as they could possibly have been, who had great holes in their game that simply awaited exploitation by later grapplers who embraced the game.

'Injury risk' became self-fulfilling prophecy, while those who took the time, who became familiar with the situations, who developed methods of staying safe, defending, and countering entanglements, were then able to embrace the training wholeheartedly, and thus elevate their game as a consequent.

The question of hard sparring is a very divisive one in striking sports. For some athletes, actually going 100% in sparring more than maybe once a month, if even that, is a rarity. Others elide it altogether, preferring supervised coaching in drills, bagwork, and partner work to refine your toolset. Others still, like Bernard Hopkins, would be in the gym every day going hard intensity live. Multiple times a day even. It would not be a coincidence at all, i would wager, that B-hop also just so happened to be possessed of some of the finest systems of defensive acumen in boxing.


So indeed, you build a better offense. And to build a better offense, you have better training. And to have better training, you get better defense.

 

[Dogstarman]

Please. I think you might mean debate. Debait is not a word that I am familiar with.

I know this is sherdog but there is no excuse to misspell with auto correct now a days.