Economy It pisses me off that Liberals do not want to cut the budget AT ALL

[avenue94]

Not sure how familiar you are with Milton Friedman, but he's an economist that can sort of do for economics what Carl Sagan does for science. One of the things I've always liked is how he describes spending money, and uses it as a barb towards government spending

What percentage of GDP do you think a developed country's should be?

 

[KAZSoliloquy]

Sure, its not the first time something like that has happened. Its still always weird to me, and my point is that how many of these people have legitimate concerns or are just reactionaries? I didnt answer the questions because they dont really have anything to do with the point I made. Im talking about this specific group of people, and then when I get responses people want me to start defending DOGE from their accusations, which is a legitimate but completely different topic. But, I have as much internet love for you as anybody else, so I'll dive in.

Ultimately I think we probably know what one and other think. I feel like you probably will believe its a drastic and unconstitutional overreach and the potential damage is catastrophic. For me, this is something that needs to happen, and all sorts of criticism is probably going to be fair but it doesnt remove the necessity. I remember reading that the governemnt accounting office (not Trump/Musk, etc) said that in last 15 years or so the government paid out almost 3 trillion dollars of "improper payments". Thats should give anybody pause. Fundamentally, I dont see any issue with an agency that looks into the financials of government spending. DOGE has no executive power. It isnt like Musk slams a gavel and then OSHA regulations get removed.

If the argument is that it could be done better, yeah, ok, sure. But the amount of wasteful spending is absolutely bonkers and anyone should want that to have better oversight than it has now. Right now theres all sorts of reactions because Trump wants to come in like a force of nature and make big changes. People say they want big changes, but usually dont like the process of it happening. Just like how Trumps current high scores in the current polling mean exactly jack shit because its too early to start judging him, I think the same is probably going to be true for many of these ideas. The sides were picked a long time ago and they've sharpening their knives ever since. I don't particularly care about that. Whether DOGE improves anything or not, we arent going to find out in a week or two. Im perfectly happy if we move towards more transparency with government agencies spending. Trump might be a sledgehammer when a scalpel would be a better tool, but I'd prefer some tool doing the job rather than nothing at all, and then we can choose a better tool as time goes on. The process can always be refined and I dont expect complete success from the first week. But I do think this absolutely is something that needed to happen, and I also think much of the intense pushback against it is more rooted in political identity than it is in any real criticism about receipts and paperwork.

Dont know if you know him, but Byron Donalds is a congressman from Florida. He's conservative, so I doubt he's your kind of guy. But he did say that his experience is that no one in the game wants to cut any spending at all, and the goal is always more spending. He's probably being hyperbolic, he is a politician after all, but I dont think its inconceivable that theres a lot of truth to whats he's saying.

Not sure how familiar you are with Milton Friedman, but he's an economist that can sort of do for economics what Carl Sagan does for science. One of the things I've always liked is how he describes spending money, and uses it as a barb towards government spending




I've also just always really like his breakdown of capitalism using a pencil. This has nothing to do with anything. But its 2 minutes long and really interesting.

milton friedman was both mildly retarded and a blatant liar. one of the worst, most overtly destructive minds in neoliberalist thought. i don't know much about carl sagan but i sincerely doubt he's as much of a scumbag and a hack.

 

[Bob Gray]

milton friedman was both mildly retarded and a blatant liar. one of the worst, most overtly destructive minds in neoliberalist thought. i don't know much about carl sagan but i sincerely doubt he's as much of a scumbag and a hack.

 

[Bob Gray]

What percentage of GDP do you think a developed country's should be?

Just tell me what point you want to make.

 

[avenue94]

Just tell me what point you want to make.

I'm genuinely curious on what target you want for developed countries, since you're implying the US' debt is too high. A ballpark is fine too.

The Friedman stuff is whatever, some of his economic work is quite good, some of it hasn't held up.

 

[Bob Gray]

I'm genuinely curious on what target you want for developed countries, since you're implying the US' debt is too high. A ballpark is fine too.

The Friedman stuff is whatever, some of his economic work is quite good, some of it hasn't held up.

My point is really about the GDP or really even debt, though. Even if it were absolutely perfect, I'd still have the same opinion. Wasteful spending is bad, and more transparency with agency spending is good. Close to 3 trillion dollars of "improper payments" is bad. That shouldnt happen. But I dont think this has anything to do with gdp or debt specifically.

 

[BowserJr]

Seek psychological help immediately.

Looks like your feelings got hurt

 

[Andy Capp]

My point is really about the GDP, though. Even if it were absolutely perfect, I'd still have the same opinion. Wasteful spending is bad, and more transparency with agency spending is good. Close to 3 trillion dollars of "improper payments" is bad. That shouldnt happen. But I dont think this has anything to do with gdp.

The improper payments include under-payments. And your 3 trillion number is made up bullsit.


Edit: source,

Medicare and Medicaid: Additional Actions Needed to Enhance Program Integrity and Save Billions

Both Medicare and Medicaid are susceptible to payment errors—over $100 billion worth in 2023. Known as "improper payments," these are payments that...

www.gao.gov

The Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) estimated a combined total of over $100 billion in improper payments in the Medicare and Medicaid programs in fiscal year 2023. This represents 43 percent of the government-wide total of estimated improper payments that agencies reported for that year.

Improper Payments Estimates for Fiscal Year 2023

And what keeps getting left out of this dumb argument is this,

"CMS and congressional action on GAO recommendations related to Medicare and Medicaid has resulted in over $200 billion in financial benefits since 2006. Action on recommendations that remain unimplemented would further enhance program integrity and save billions of dollars in Medicare and Medicaid spending."

What do you suppose is getting in the way of dealing with "recommendations that remain unimplemented"?

"Why GAO Did This Study​

In 2023, the Medicare program spent an estimated $1.0 trillion to provide health care services for approximately 66 million elderly and disabled individuals. This involved processing over a billion transactions. Medicaid is a joint federal-state program that finances health care for low-income and medically needy individuals. It is the second largest health care program by expenditures, with an estimated $849 billion in federal and state spending for services provided to about 90 million individuals in 2023.

Medicare and Medicaid are complex and large programs. They represented 26 percent of federal program spending in fiscal year 2023. The programs are susceptible to improper payments, as well as potential mismanagement and fraud, waste, and abuse. As a result, GAO added Medicare to its High-Risk list in 1990 and Medicaid in 2003.

This testimony focuses on examples of steps taken by CMS to reduce improper payments in Medicare and Medicaid, as well as actions still needed by CMS and Congress. It draws on GAO's reports issued and recommendations made from 2008 through 2024 on the Medicare and Medicaid programs and known steps CMS has taken to address these recommendations as of March 2024."

Note the date. DOGE is redundant and a waste of money, and only gives the appearance of effectiveness because it is breaking the law.

 

[Khaosan]

Looks like your feelings got hurt

I’m not American and don’t wish death upon my fellow countrymen. Enjoy your plane crashes and egg prices dipshit .

 

[avenue94]

My point is really about the GDP or really even debt, though. Even if it were absolutely perfect, I'd still have the same opinion. Wasteful spending is bad, and more transparency with agency spending is good. Close to 3 trillion dollars of "improper payments" is bad. That shouldnt happen. But I dont think this has anything to do with gdp or debt specifically.

But it is. Waste matters most in the context of the overall fiscal situation. There's no debate about reducing it, but how fast and how many rules you break is informed by the bigger picture. That's why I'm tying to understand how bad you think the country's debt is, and while imperfect, debt to GDP (or debt servicing to GDP) are the main objective measures here.

 

[Bob Gray]

The improper payments include under-payments. And your 3 trillion number is made up bullsit.

The Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) estimated a combined total of over $100 billion in improper payments in the Medicare and Medicaid programs in fiscal year 2023. This represents 43 percent of the government-wide total of estimated improper payments that agencies reported for that year.

Improper Payments Estimates for Fiscal Year 2023

And what keeps getting left out of this dumb argument is this,

"CMS and congressional action on GAO recommendations related to Medicare and Medicaid has resulted in over $200 billion in financial benefits since 2006. Action on recommendations that remain unimplemented would further enhance program integrity and save billions of dollars in Medicare and Medicaid spending."

What do you suppose is getting in the way of dealing with "recommendations that remain unimplemented"?

"Why GAO Did This Study​

In 2023, the Medicare program spent an estimated $1.0 trillion to provide health care services for approximately 66 million elderly and disabled individuals. This involved processing over a billion transactions. Medicaid is a joint federal-state program that finances health care for low-income and medically needy individuals. It is the second largest health care program by expenditures, with an estimated $849 billion in federal and state spending for services provided to about 90 million individuals in 2023.

Medicare and Medicaid are complex and large programs. They represented 26 percent of federal program spending in fiscal year 2023. The programs are susceptible to improper payments, as well as potential mismanagement and fraud, waste, and abuse. As a result, GAO added Medicare to its High-Risk list in 1990 and Medicaid in 2003.

This testimony focuses on examples of steps taken by CMS to reduce improper payments in Medicare and Medicaid, as well as actions still needed by CMS and Congress. It draws on GAO's reports issued and recommendations made from 2008 through 2024 on the Medicare and Medicaid programs and known steps CMS has taken to address these recommendations as of March 2024."

Note the date. DOGE is redundant and a waste of money, and only gives the appearance of effectiveness because it is breaking the law.

Your problem isnt with me, its with the Government Accountability Office.

Fraud and Improper Payments

Fraud and improper payments are long-standing and significant problems in the federal government. While fraud and improper payments are related...

www.gao.gov

However, the federal government could be losing between $233 billion and $521 billion annually to fraud. Additionally, federal agencies reported an estimated $236 billion in improper payments in FY 2023, and cumulative federal improper payment estimates have totaled about $2.7 trillion since FY 2003.

The GAO study is saying theyre susceptible to fraud, waste and abuse. Youre asking me what's getting in the way of recommendations that remain unimplemented? I dont know. Do you? Do you know what these unimplemented recommendations are, how effective theyd be and why they arent implemented? Is it Trump?

 

[Bob Gray]

But it is. Waste matters most in the context of the overall fiscal situation. There's no debate about reducing it, but how fast and how many rules you break is informed by the bigger picture. That's why I'm tying to understand how bad you think the country's debt is, and while imperfect, debt to GDP (or debt servicing to GDP) are the main objective measures here.

To me, debt is a different discussion. High debt isnt a bad thing in an of itself, which is kind of why I dont think it really matters to the point Im making, which is transparency is good and bad spending is always bad, regardless of debt. If you had a high debt, but good investments, its not really a bad thing. But high debt because, say, maxing out a bunch of different credit cards on cocaine and strippers probably isnt going to have a good result. Not that Im saying all government debt is cocaine, but you get what Im saying.

 

[David Street]

I do not like trump he should be in prison... anyone who trust him and musk is an idiot.

 

[Andy Capp]

Your problem isnt with me, its with the Government Accountability Office.

Fraud and Improper Payments

Fraud and improper payments are long-standing and significant problems in the federal government. While fraud and improper payments are related...

www.gao.gov

The GAO study is saying theyre susceptible to fraud, waste and abuse. Youre asking me what's getting in the way of recommendations that remain unimplemented? I dont know. Do you? Do you know what these unimplemented recommendations are, how effective theyd be and why they arent implemented? Is it Trump?

Funny, it's like you didn't read my post. Please give it another try and get back to me. I'm not repeating myself explaining why this is silly. It's all in that post.

 

[Bob Gray]

Funny, it's like you didn't read my post. Please give it another try and get back to me. I'm not repeating myself explaining why this is silly. It's all in that post.

Sure, Andy.

 

[Andy Capp]

Sure, Andy.

 

[ermac88]

That's the least of America's problem lol.

You guys are so fixated on trans and gay people.

It's hilarious.

America has much more severe issues.

Kids in the US are getting their heads blown off and executed at schools, at school for the love of god.

and certain people are fixated on blokes in drag reading books to them.

Its not hilarious, it fucking pathetic.

 

[Andy Capp]

To me, debt is a different discussion. High debt isnt a bad thing in an of itself, which is kind of why I dont think it really matters to the point Im making, which is transparency is good and bad spending is always bad, regardless of debt. If you had a high debt, but good investments, its not really a bad thing. But high debt because, say, maxing out a bunch of different credit cards on cocaine and strippers probably isnt going to have a good result. Not that Im saying all government debt is cocaine, but you get what Im saying.

It's a bad thing when it's as high as it is now and adding to it with tax cuts is worse.

 

[ermac88]

Most of Trump's debt wasn't Covid. His problem was tax cuts at a time when the government should have been focused on reducing deficits so that it would be able to absorb stimulus spending during disasters like Covid.

Blows my mind masses of poor people supported this and continue to moving forward

Donald Trump Built a National Debt So Big (Even Before the Pandemic) That It’ll Weigh Down the Economy for Years

The “King of Debt” promised to reduce the national debt — then his tax cuts made it surge. Add in the pandemic, and he oversaw the third-biggest deficit increase of any president.

www.propublica.org

Donald Trump Built a National Debt So Big (Even Before the Pandemic) That It’ll Weigh Down the Economy for Years​

But there is a reason they remain poor and he and his elites are rich

 

[Bob Gray]

It's a bad thing when it's as high as it is now and adding to it with tax cuts is worse.

Let me just ask you something because I really do want your opinion. You said that what Musk and DOGE are doing is illegal. Ok, give it to me. What is the law thats being broken and how? I am trying to get reasonable discussions, and these dont happen around here very often.