Is USA a Democracy or an Oligarchy? -Bernie Sanders

[xcvbn]

First 0:45, the rest is just the entire crowd giving Sanders a standing ovation while Hillary does her spooky lizard-like snicker.

 

[Madmick]

Inb4 someone whines that he's full of shit because he's a "socialist" (sshhhhh...he's not, children):
Jimmy Carter: U.S. Is an 'Oligarchy With Unlimited Political Bribery'

 

[Slick_36]

Who the hell is Jimmy Carter and what does he know about American politics?

 

[Slick_36]

Oh, he's the brother of that guy who sold the beer with his name on it back in the day. Jimmy is probably jealous of Billy for being a successful entrepreneur who pulled himself up by the boot straps.

 

[Unknown Pleasures]

First 0:45, the rest is just the entire crowd giving Sanders a standing ovation while Hillary does her spooky lizard-like snicker.

Wow, what a moment for Sanders. Contrast that to his empty room speech @ 2:15


To answer the Q, it's a de facto oligarchy to some extent as evidence by possible Presidency of years of people with the name Bush or Clinton, for what, 24 of 32 years if Hillary was president for the next 8 years, and the stranglehold of media, and $$$$ needed to run.

That being said, in theory it is not impossible for anybody to be president, but the "system" has a lot of checks in balances in places in place so that the rich and powerful stay the rich and powerful regardless of who is elected.

I think this is recognized by a lot of people at some level, hence, turnout rates typically are around 60%.

 

[panamaican]

I'm always on the fence about this. If an oligarchy is a small group of people ruling then we're not. But people mean that a small group of people are exerting an outsized influence over the direction of the nation. My only issue is, when applied to America, it disregards the failure of most Americans to participate in their government and treats it as if those Americans don't have the ability to participate.

So, is it fair to blame the rich for exercising control over the government when the poor have basically ceded it to them by inaction?

 

[VivaRevolution]

Who the hell is Jimmy Carter and what does he know about American politics?

Just a peanut farmer.

 

[VivaRevolution]

I'm always on the fence about this. If an oligarchy is a small group of people ruling then we're not. But people mean that a small group of people are exerting an outsized influence over the direction of the nation. My only issue is, when applied to America, it disregards the failure of most Americans to participate in their government and treats it as if those Americans don't have the ability to participate.

So, is it fair to blame the rich for exercising control over the government when the poor have basically ceded it to them by inaction?

Yeah, nothing to do with citizens united.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I'm always on the fence about this. If an oligarchy is a small group of people ruling then we're not.

That is the definition of it. So, really, case closed. The U.S. is not an oligarchy and it does have a democratic system of gov't. It's true that some people have disproportionate influence, but that's going to be true in any democracy.

And the focus on campaign finance and lobbyists is completely misguided. The NRA is so powerful not because of the few thousand bucks it might contribute to someone's campaign but because it represents a shipload of yokels. The CU era hasn't exactly been a period of unbroken success for the wealthy, or even for wealthy donors. JEB's campaign crashed and burned, and Rubio's wings are on fire.

Yeah, nothing to do with citizens united.

Can you think of a single law that has passed since CU that wouldn't have passed before it?

Something to note is that Super PACs and campaign financing are pretty much a scam that political operatives and consultants pull on vain, rich suckers. And historically, a lot of the push for campaign finance reform has come from donors.

 

[panamaican]

Yeah, nothing to do with citizens united.

Exactly, I didn't think you'd be someone to understand that.

 

[panamaican]

That is the definition of it. So, really, case closed. The U.S. is not an oligarchy and it does have a democratic system of gov't. It's true that some people have disproportionate influence, but that's going to be true in any democracy.

And the focus on campaign finance and lobbyists is completely misguided. The NRA is so powerful not because of the few thousand bucks it might contribute to someone's campaign but because it represents a shipload of yokels. The CU era hasn't exactly been a period of unbroken success for the wealthy, or even for wealthy donors. JEB's campaign crashed and burned, and Rubio's wings are on fire.



Can you think of a single law that has passed since CU that wouldn't have passed before it?

I've grown tired of the Citizens United backlash because it so often is based on a complete failure to understand what a corporation actually is. That a corporation is a legal fiction created by the tax code not related to politics.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I've grown tired of the Citizens United backlash because it so often is based on a complete failure to understand what a corporation actually is. That a corporation is a legal fiction created by the tax code not related to politics.

I'm with you on that fatigue. I initially bought the standard liberal position on it, and I was worried that it would be a major obstacle to reform (though even going back pretty far I was aware of evidence that money isn't really a big factor in elections). But things just haven't turned out the way a lot of liberals said they would, and that should have caused some rethinking.

 

[Skip Reming]

Inb4 someone whines that he's full of shit because he's a "socialist" (sshhhhh...he's not, children):
Jimmy Carter: U.S. Is an 'Oligarchy With Unlimited Political Bribery'

Lol, Jimmy Carter said it so it must be true. Might as well vote for trump. He is running on his own money too and is not a socialist.

bernie - "rich people can't be trusted"
bernie is a rich person
bernie can't be trusted


1) He just whines about it being an oligarchy but gives no proof
2) What would he do to fix it? Not given.
3) Somehow he REALLY thinks if this were true that he COULD fix it? How is that? Become a DICTATOR just like the other socialists. Shouldn't socialists love dictatorships and oligarchies? That is their shit.
4) If there were some OLIGARCHY and they ran shit and were the most powerful group of men and BERNIE was going to take them down, um, then why haven't they killed Bernie?

Anyone who likes Bernie is really fucking clueless.
1) Conspiracy tard now
2) Wants to be more powerful than phantom Oligarchy
3) Is a socialist with tax ideas that will drive out business
4) wants regressive taxes AKA tariffs and other controls to RUIN THE FREE MARKET THAT MADE US THE BEST COUNTRY IN WORLD HISTORY!!! Think about that, we go to the top and we are the top because of us being a capitalist constitutional republic -- this is the BEST MODEL and it is PROVEN in the REAL WORLD
5) He wants to steal YOUR money to hand out to bums

Oligarchy is a form of power structure in which power effectively rests with a small number of people.

hmmm... executive branch - president and vice president
judicial branch - 9 justices
legislative branch - There are a total of 535 Members of Congress. 100 serve in the U.S. Senate and 435 serve in the U.S. House of Representatives

Most people often mistakenly refer to our nation as the greatest democracy on earth. They are mistaken because we are not an absolute democracy; we are a constitutional republic. That is what makes our nation great, for if we were merely a democracy, we would be anything but great. And to the extent that we no longer function as a constitutional republic, that greatness is rapidly ebbing away. - See more at: http://madisonproject.com/2013/09/w...epublic-not-a-democracy/#sthash.v9cDgLtN.dpuf

http://madisonproject.com/2013/09/we-the-people-a-constitutional-republic-not-a-democracy/


FUCK BERNIE SANDERS and anyone dumb enough to vote for that old RACIST asshole.

 

[LuchaBear]

 

[Madmick]

Yeah, nothing to do with citizens united.

This is such an irritating and smug response to a truly fraught philosophical question that Pan laid out.

I've grown tired of the Citizens United backlash because it so often is based on a complete failure to understand what a corporation actually is. That a corporation is a legal fiction created by the tax code not related to politics.

Yep. You and I are feeling a similar uneasiness. I believe your concern is genuine and not political in nature.

I'm with you on that fatigue. I initially bought the standard liberal position on it, and I was worried that it would be a major obstacle to reform (though even going back pretty far I was aware of evidence that money isn't really a big factor in elections). But things just haven't turned out the way a lot of liberals said they would, and that should have caused some rethinking.

So basically you liked it until it didn't favor Hillary anymore.

 

[Fawlty]

Lol, Jimmy Carter said it so it must be true. Might as well vote for trump. He is running on his own money too and is not a socialist.

bernie - "rich people can't be trusted"
bernie is a rich person
bernie can't be trusted


1) He just whines about it being an oligarchy but gives no proof
2) What would he do to fix it? Not given.
3) Somehow he REALLY thinks if this were true that he COULD fix it? How is that? Become a DICTATOR just like the other socialists. Shouldn't socialists love dictatorships and oligarchies? That is their shit.
4) If there were some OLIGARCHY and they ran shit and were the most powerful group of men and BERNIE was going to take them down, um, then why haven't they killed Bernie?

Anyone who likes Bernie is really fucking clueless.
1) Conspiracy tard now
2) Wants to be more powerful than phantom Oligarchy
3) Is a socialist with tax ideas that will drive out business
4) wants regressive taxes AKA tariffs and other controls to RUIN THE FREE MARKET THAT MADE US THE BEST COUNTRY IN WORLD HISTORY!!! Think about that, we go to the top and we are the top because of us being a capitalist constitutional republic -- this is the BEST MODEL and it is PROVEN in the REAL WORLD
5) He wants to steal YOUR money to hand out to bums

Oligarchy is a form of power structure in which power effectively rests with a small number of people.

hmmm... executive branch - president and vice president
judicial branch - 9 justices
legislative branch - There are a total of 535 Members of Congress. 100 serve in the U.S. Senate and 435 serve in the U.S. House of Representatives

Most people often mistakenly refer to our nation as the greatest democracy on earth. They are mistaken because we are not an absolute democracy; we are a constitutional republic. That is what makes our nation great, for if we were merely a democracy, we would be anything but great. And to the extent that we no longer function as a constitutional republic, that greatness is rapidly ebbing away. - See more at: http://madisonproject.com/2013/09/w...epublic-not-a-democracy/#sthash.v9cDgLtN.dpuf

http://madisonproject.com/2013/09/we-the-people-a-constitutional-republic-not-a-democracy/


FUCK BERNIE SANDERS and anyone dumb enough to vote for that old RACIST asshole.

You post like you're trying hard to win something that nobody else wants to compete for.
---

Citizens United is what about 10 years old now? This might be the year that begins to change my strong opinion that it's a horrible idea. On the face of it, it seems like the worst thing that could happen to democracy. But we see even this year, a very popular guy in Trump who could just as easily be an "oligarch" given a different set of circumstances, yet it hasn't worked out that way. Same with Bloomberg (and he couldn't even get off the ground). And Sanders' campaign is very successful running against the big money idea. There remains something inherently repulsive about the idea that unlimited money is political speech though. It offends to the core.

 

[Jack V Savage]

So basically you liked it until it didn't favor Hillary anymore.

Huh?

You post like you're trying hard to win something that nobody else wants to compete for.
---

Citizens United is what about 10 years old now? This might be the year that begins to change my strong opinion that it's a horrible idea. On the face of it, it seems like the worst thing that could happen to democracy. But we see even this year, a very popular guy in Trump who could just as easily be an "oligarch" given a different set of circumstances, yet it hasn't worked out that way. Same with Bloomberg. And Sanders' campaign is very successful running against the big money idea. There remains something inherently repulsive about the idea that unlimited money is political speech though. It offends to the core.

I'm also with you that it doesn't seem right. But at this point, I think it's very clear that liberal fears were not justified.

 

[Skip Reming]

You post like you're trying hard to win something that nobody else wants to compete for.
---.

an debate on the war room ----which exists for debate??? Like having supporting evidence and reasoning? How dare I? Shit

I post to clarify my own ideas. Actually trying to make a decent argument and proof leads you to actually learn something.

Bernie acting like somehow he is magic is just ridiculous

as far as being called a socialist, Bernie does it to HIMSELF more than anyone else does

More Americans say they would vote for a Muslim or an atheist for president than they would for a socialist, according to a recent Gallup Poll. Yet "socialist" is now how Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders has described himself throughout his career.
-http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/08/27/434872755/exactly-what-kind-of-socialist-is-bernie-sanders

 

[Fawlty]

an debate on the war room ----which exists for debate??? Like having supporting evidence and reasoning? How dare I? Shit

I post to clarify my own ideas. Actually trying to make a decent argument and proof leads you to actually learn something.

Bernie acting like somehow he is magic is just ridiculous

as far as being called a socialist, Bernie does it to HIMSELF more than anyone else does

More Americans say they would vote for a Muslim or an atheist for president than they would for a socialist, according to a recent Gallup Poll. Yet "socialist" is now how Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders has described himself throughout his career.
-http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/08/27/434872755/exactly-what-kind-of-socialist-is-bernie-sanders

If you want to argue that his small increase to roughly pre-86 Reagan levels of taxes can't pay for his proposals, you'll probably be right. But you're constantly overplaying your hand. His oligarchy rhetoric rings true to a lot of people in the area of wealth inequality.

 

[Madmick]

Huh?

That's what she said.