Is casein protein just as important as whey?

[GolovKing]

I understand that it has a slower absorption rate but would you say that casein is something that everybody should have, similar to whey or not as important?

 

[560ti]

I know a lot of people that will take it in the evening to curb late night snacking and to prevent the urge to eat mid sleep (I use to have this issue, would wake up at 4am with my stomach rumbling).

Casein isn't required, most of the people I knew who took it where cutting weight and wanted the convenience. Technically you can just eat cottage cheese before bed or mix a little bit of whey with a glass of milk and both will do essentially the same thing but cheaper

 

[GolovKing]

I know a lot of people that will take it in the evening to curb late night snacking and to prevent the urge to eat mid sleep (I use to have this issue, would wake up at 4am with my stomach rumbling).

Casein isn't required, most of the people I knew who took it where cutting weight and wanted the convenience. Technically you can just eat cottage cheese before bed or mix a little bit of whey with a glass of milk and both will do essentially the same thing but cheaper

How much cottage cheese would you have to eat to compare to a casein protein shake? I'm wondering if it would affect your ability to sleep well in any way

 

[560ti]

How much cottage cheese would you have to eat to compare to a casein protein shake? I'm wondering if it would affect your ability to sleep well in any way

Serving size is 1/2 cup. Bigger guys or more serious athletes would probably have a full cup. I can't stand the taste of cottage cheese, so I don't personally do it. In regards to sleep unless you have some sort of reaction or allergy to milk/casein then you should be fine. It's not common but also not rare for people to not react great to casein.

 

[1rawdog]

I understand that it has a slower absorption rate but would you say that casein is something that everybody should have, similar to whey or not as important?

Just as important as whey. And Beef. And Chicken. And Fish. And Eggs.
What everybody should have is protein that has a complete amino acid profile.
There is nothing special about the source other than how it fits into your lifestyle and how your body reacts to it. ie some people are not tolerant of lactose or eggs.

Yes casein absorbs more slowly than whey. So? People seem to assume that this is better for hypertrophy and recovery because it seems like simple logic. Where is the proof of that? Not saying it's not true but I've never seen it.
Things are not always as simple as they appear. For example maybe whey is better because the AA levels peak higher and drop off quicker. If it's so much better than why would you use whey at all?

 

[ROcknrollracing]

It is definitely good before sleep. It going to get pretty pricey eating a cup every night though.

 

[AfroBanana]

It’s slower digesting. Kind of like comparing fast carbs and slow carbs. You want fast protein post workout to replenish and slow proteins to recover (sleeping fast for example). You can still eat like chicken and eggs before bed and they’re slower digesting than whey. Cottage cheese or Greek yogurt before bed would be an example. If it’s being add fruit, honey etc and make it a dessert.

Having fats with protein can slow them down (oils and nuts or nut butters). For example if you ate some chicken or had a whey shake combine with a scoop or two of almond butter or eat a handful of nuts.

The easiest way to do it is drink like a 1-2 servings of fairlife whole milk before bed with another protein snack. It will give you 14-28g of casein protein.

 

[TheTickG]

Protein powders aren't as important as the industry makes it sound. With a proper diet a person can get an adequate amount of protein.

 

[Trabaho]

both are not important. You can get the same benefits form cheese, eggs and meat. It´s just protein. 100 g of animal protein is 100 g of animal protein. Animal cause plant protein doesn´t have all amino acids and a lower bio aviability. But since protein isn´t the only good stuff, plants are just as if not more important then animal products.

 

[1rawdog]

... You want fast protein post workout to replenish and slow proteins to recover ...

The easiest way to do it is drink like a 1-2 servings of fairlife whole milk before bed with another protein snack. It will give you 14-28g of casein protein.

The goal of all discussed in this thread is a very important part of the discussion. I assume strength, muscular health and recovery, possibly hypertrophy.

Non bro-science source for the first part? Taking that statement to mean that what you suggest would improve strength and/or hypertrophy.

Fairlife seems expensive for what you get from it to me, agree or no? Easiest is pretty subjective. 28g, that's a very low amount of protein assuming athletic goals.

 

[AfroBanana]

The goal of all discussed in this thread is a very important part of the discussion. I assume strength, muscular health and recovery, possibly hypertrophy.

Non bro-science source for the first part? Taking that statement to mean that what you suggest would improve strength and/or hypertrophy.

Fairlife seems expensive for what you get from it to me, agree or no? Easiest is pretty subjective. 28g, that's a very low amount of protein assuming athletic goals.

Is not bro science. I mentioned that slow digesting proteins exist the same as carbs and the glycemic index you can look that up. I mentioned that fats can slow down digestion which they can.

I mentioned fairlife because it’s 14g per serving vs 8 with traditional milk (it’s also lactose free). I also said combine it with another protein snack (like a chicken breast sandwich or something) now you should have 60-80g.

Easiest is subjective? Pouring a glass of milk and drinking it is easier than cooking meat.

You want like charts to read or something? You’re trying to complicate this.

The point of taking a slower digesting protein before bed is to recover better while fasting. This leads to all the things you mentioned. Does it make a massive difference? If you eat a steak, take a whey shake, eat casein? That’s debatable. I’m simply suggesting doing something easy.

Drink some casein but take another source. Eat some yogurt or cottage cheese and eat an other source. The 14-28g is probably enough “slow digesting” along with other sources. If you take a shake it’s only going to give you like 20-30 if you buy a quality powder form like myprotein or something.

I didn’t realize you had financial struggles either so I just assumed you could afford the milk that costs a little more but gives you nearly 2x the protein.

Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion

The speed of absorption of dietary amino acids by the gut varies according to the type of ingested dietary protein. This could affect postprandial protein synthesis, breakdown, and deposition. To test this hypothesis, two intrinsically [13] C-leucine-labeled ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A chart, it’s not hard to look up the digestion rates of eggs, whey, casein, fish/meat, nuts etc. you can do the same with carbs pure sugar, brown rice, beans etc.

Just eat protein and sleep you don’t have to get on the spectrum hyper fixated with this stuff.

Here’s some bro science, myself (and others I know) seem to get odd or weird dreams when taking casein before bed.

Again sleep and diet lead to these (strength, muscular health and recovery, possibly hypertrophy.) assuming you’re training optimally.

Edit:

Here’s a chart at the bottom of this page on the naked protein site. I choose this because the rates match up with more academic stuff than just shitty supplement companies trying to sell caisen powder.

Protein Absorption Rate Chart

Protein absorption is a hot topic among athletes and fitness enthusiasts. To reach fitness goals, it’s important to understand how to best fuel your body. Many people wonder how much protein they should consume as well as the best sources of protein to maximize their body’s absorption of...

nakednutrition.com

The only thing I will add is milk can vary (full fat vs skim the skim will be fast like whey and the whole will be slower like caisen).

I personally only take a whey shake after workouts and a fast carb after a workout. As far as the rest goes I just mix my protein sources and eat them before I sleep (fast) a mix of proteins that digest at various rates. I basically eat a piece of chicken (boneless breast or thighs) a steak, fish (salmon or cod), a head of broccoli and a scoop of cottage cheese or Greek yogurt (usually 14 grams).

A long ass time ago I took casein shakes. They taste like shit (worse than whey) and the mixing and texture is off to me. In order to make them taste good I had to add like bananas and peanut butter etc and use a vitamix. It gets old pretty fast so I just prefer eating what tastes good to me. The whole food sources is likely better anyways.

 

[1rawdog]

Seems to be some sort of disconnect here, please note the replies I've made in bold through your reply below. You've gone off on an unnecessary tangent, please read my request again "Non bro-science source for the first part? Taking that statement to mean that what you suggest would improve strength and/or hypertrophy." You may wish to read post #5 for further clarity.

By the first part I mean the first part of what I quoted where you said " You want fast protein post workout to replenish and slow proteins to recover". I never said it WAS bro-science but I have never seen any real science suggesting that it has proved significantly better that way with regard to athletic needs, just theoretical discussion so to me it is bro-science by definition at this point. I ask for a proper source to aid in my own education on the subject, can you provide some or are you just parroting what you have heard?
Your reply is mostly off-topic deflection, nothing in there that shows how that practice makes one bigger, faster, stronger etc.
I've taken the liberty of deleting some irrelevant parts below for brevity.
My request is sincere, i really want to know.

Is not bro science. I mentioned that slow digesting proteins exist the same as carbs and the glycemic index you can look that up. I mentioned that fats can slow down digestion which they can. see above, irrelevant to the question

I mentioned fairlife because it’s 14g per serving vs 8 with traditional milk (it’s also lactose free). I also said combine it with another protein snack (like a chicken breast sandwich or something) now you should have 60-80g.

Easiest is subjective? Pouring a glass of milk and drinking it is easier than cooking meat. No, you said "with another protein snack". Is that easier than putting liquid and powder into a cup and shaking it? Subjective.
Also "1-2 servings of fairlife whole milk before bed with another protein snack. It will give you 14-28g of casein protein." If you are suggesting that a cup of fairlife would give you 14g of casein I've never seen any claim of that. 14g protein ? Yes, Milk is about 80/20 Casein/Whey though, I've only seen Fairlife claim to remove water and lactose.

You want like charts to read or something? You’re trying to complicate this. I'd say you are trying

The point of taking a slower digesting protein before bed is to recover better while fasting. Back to my request, can you provide even one legit study to support that vs a faster source? This leads to all the things you mentioned. Source? Does it make a massive difference? If you eat a steak, take a whey shake, eat casein? That’s debatable. I've not argued that I’m simply suggesting doing something easy.

Drink some casein but take another source. Eat some yogurt or cottage cheese and eat an other source. The 14-28g is probably enough “slow digesting” along with other sources. If you take a shake it’s only going to give you like 20-30 if you buy a quality powder form like myprotein or something. Call me crazy but you could always add another scoop

I didn’t realize you had financial struggles either so I just assumed you could afford the milk that costs a little more but gives you nearly 2x the protein. Smartass lol, I get it, it's sherdog, I do it here too. I'm doing just fine thanks, the savings here add up though which may be of varying importance to anyone reading along.
100g protein in contents from my local sources and myprotein (although I'd shop elsewhere and save money for probably a better product):
Whole milk - $5.00
Whole Milk Fairlfe - $7.50 - Works out fair compared to reg milk for protein, nice
Whey Powder - $3.68
Casein Powder - $3.52
Personally I'd rather go the cheaper route with the bonus of saving carbs macro for something else.

Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion

The speed of absorption of dietary amino acids by the gut varies according to the type of ingested dietary protein. This could affect postprandial protein synthesis, breakdown, and deposition. To test this hypothesis, two intrinsically [13] C-leucine-labeled ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A chart, it’s not hard to look up the digestion rates of eggs, whey, casein, fish/meat, nuts etc. you can do the same with carbs pure sugar, brown rice, beans etc. Not relevant until it's proved to be "better" for stated goals
...
Here’s a chart at the bottom of this page on the naked protein site. I choose this because the rates match up with more academic stuff than just shitty supplement companies trying to sell caisen powder. Please. This is a marketing piece that a high schooler could have written for that (shitty supplement?) company that contains outdated info and once again is irrelevant to my request.

Protein Absorption Rate Chart

Protein absorption is a hot topic among athletes and fitness enthusiasts. To reach fitness goals, it’s important to understand how to best fuel your body. Many people wonder how much protein they should consume as well as the best sources of protein to maximize their body’s absorption of...

nakednutrition.com

EDIT - It's a day later and you've been on the site. I'm not sure but maybe you have not responded because alerts aren't working properly so here is an @ @AfroBanana , maybe that will work? Either that or you got nothing I guess, it would be sad but it could be both I suppose, no way to tell unless you respond. Good Day.

 

[Renard]

I'm pretty sure the whole point of casein is 1. satiety and 2. to counteract catabolism during the night time fast. When you're deep into a cut it's common for things to get so bad that you have issues sleeping. Eating something with casein before bed can prevent that issue. Eating another form of protein could work, but you're likely not going to get the same satiety per calorie bang for your buck. Like you could eat chicken breast, but it might take 300 calories of breast to do what 200 calories of cottage cheese would have done. I guess the people that don't get it have never done a deficit diet. Eating a steak right before bed is a nice idea and all, but not a realistic option on a cut.

 

[TrueBias]

Its slow... its slow... it's slow. We better all know that by now.

Slow or not, the shit doesnt mix well, and it doesnt curb hunger much.

What I dont know about is "milk protein isolate." So...wtf is this? How fast/slow does this digest?

 

[1rawdog]

Its slow... its slow... it's slow. We better all know that by now.

Slow or not, the shit doesnt mix well, and it doesnt curb hunger much.

What I dont know about is "milk protein isolate." So...wtf is this? How fast/slow does this digest?

Milk Protein Isolate is basically just milk powder, same ratio's as I mentioned above approx 80% Casein and 20% Whey. So slower than whey by itself and a bit faster than casein by itself.


I've still not seen real evidence that "You want fast protein post workout to replenish and slow proteins to recover" is a true statement with regard to an average athlete's goals.
I'm not saying it's not a good idea to take casein before bed etc, I'm just saying that things are not always as simple as they appear, I want to see the science that's all.

Lot's of other possibilities - what if a quick high peak from whey produces better results in the long run? What if you have amino rich blood all through your workout as well as right after because you had casein prior? etc

People want to believe certain things because they are "common knowledge" and have been parroted around forever but I'm suggesting that we have an open mind to actual scientific proof. Anecdotes don't mean too much, without a control group how can you determine what's working better?

 

[Trabaho]

Casein is literarly no fat cottage cheese in liquid form. If you read supplement websites, they want you to buy it. You could write an article about the amazing benefits of an apple, however apples are not profitable for the industry of suplements.

 

[Renard]

Casein is literarly no fat cottage cheese in liquid form. If you read supplement websites, they want you to buy it. You could write an article about the amazing benefits of an apple, however apples are not profitable for the industry of suplements.

Per gram of protein, casein powder is about the same price as cottage cheese. There's no money there. Skyr yogourt would be a little cheaper than the powder, but it's dense as fuck and annoying to eat. It's also annoying to have an absurd number of yogurt and cottage cheese containers taking up space in the fridge. Eating food is great when cutting because it gives you satiety. While bulking, the powder makes more sense.

 

[AfroBanana]

Seems to be some sort of disconnect here, please note the replies I've made in bold through your reply below. You've gone off on an unnecessary tangent, please read my request again "Non bro-science source for the first part? Taking that statement to mean that what you suggest would improve strength and/or hypertrophy." You may wish to read post #5 for further clarity.

By the first part I mean the first part of what I quoted where you said " You want fast protein post workout to replenish and slow proteins to recover". I never said it WAS bro-science but I have never seen any real science suggesting that it has proved significantly better that way with regard to athletic needs, just theoretical discussion so to me it is bro-science by definition at this point. I ask for a proper source to aid in my own education on the subject, can you provide some or are you just parroting what you have heard?
Your reply is mostly off-topic deflection, nothing in there that shows how that practice makes one bigger, faster, stronger etc.
I've taken the liberty of deleting some irrelevant parts below for brevity.
My request is sincere, i really want to know.


EDIT - It's a day later and you've been on the site. I'm not sure but maybe you have not responded because alerts aren't working properly so here is an @ @AfroBanana , maybe that will work? Either that or you got nothing I guess, it would be sad but it could be both I suppose, no way to tell unless you respond. Good Day.

I didn’t respond because you’re literally acting on the spectrum about this.

Fairlife is 80% (20% whey) casein roughly the same as cottage cheese. I’m sorry I threw out the total number as I assume whatever is a majority whey or casein can be referred to as such.

https://aliciacone.weebly.com/uploads/3/9/2/0/39200111/casein_and_whey_proteins_list.pdf

Fairlife is often under $5 at chain stores or discount clubs and easy to stock up on

Casein isn’t anabolic steroids. The benefits again many others mentioned (slow digesting and fasting). Again proteins like carbs digestion rates can possible benefit you to a degree.

You sound like an absolute novice that’s hyper fixated on something trivial. Will casein make you look like a bodybuilder and add plates to your big 3 lifts? Probably not. Will it potential assist in recovery long term (by consuming it at the right feeding windows) giving you some smaller benefits possibly……..

Can it help with anti catabolic during cutting? Along with BCAA’s? As already mentioned, likely.

Should you lay awake at night wondering about this and being obsessed with the science, probably not. You can find studies on absorption rates and benefits pretty sure you been linked some already.

 

[1rawdog]

I didn’t respond because you’re literally acting on the spectrum about this.

Fairlife is 80% (20% whey) casein roughly the same as cottage cheese. I’m sorry I threw out the total number as I assume whatever is a majority whey or casein can be referred to as such.

https://aliciacone.weebly.com/uploads/3/9/2/0/39200111/casein_and_whey_proteins_list.pdf

Fairlife is often under $5 at chain stores or discount clubs and easy to stock up on

Casein isn’t anabolic steroids. The benefits again many others mentioned (slow digesting and fasting). Again proteins like carbs digestion rates can possible benefit you to a degree.

You sound like an absolute novice that’s hyper fixated on something trivial. Will casein make you look like a bodybuilder and add plates to your big 3 lifts? Probably not. Will it potential assist in recovery long term (by consuming it at the right feeding windows) giving you some smaller benefits possibly……..

Can it help with anti catabolic during cutting? Along with BCAA’s? As already mentioned, likely.

Should you lay awake at night wondering about this and being obsessed with the science, probably not. You can find studies on absorption rates and benefits pretty sure you been linked some already.

I'm not on the spectrum but I think you should check if their is a way you can get on somehow. Maybe you'll get the hyper-focus component, it may help you stay on track and overcome your low IQ issue.

I already said what the ratio of casein to whey was, not sure why you felt the need to repeat it.

You are the novice here, you don't seem to understand the distinction between "absorption rates" or "digestion rates" and things like contribution to Muscle Protein Synthesis etc. And that's ok, I have a deeper interest than you, possibly been into this since before you were born.

I simply asked if you knew of any actual science that supported your statement.
Your "benefits many others mentioned, possible benefit, probably not, potential assist, possibly, likely etc" = bro science

I'll repeat it one more time - " You've gone off on an unnecessary tangent, please read my request again "Non bro-science source for the first part? Taking that statement to mean that what you suggest would improve strength and/or hypertrophy."

How hard would it have been just to not reply or say "No, sorry I don't have a source" ?

 

[Trabaho]

Per gram of protein, casein powder is about the same price as cottage cheese. There's no money there. Skyr yogourt would be a little cheaper than the powder, but it's dense as fuck and annoying to eat. It's also annoying to have an absurd number of yogurt and cottage cheese containers taking up space in the fridge. Eating food is great when cutting because it gives you satiety. While bulking, the powder makes more sense.

It's healthier to eat the fresh cheese then some stale flavored powder