Ippon Seoi Nage

Rod1 said:
You can get far more lifting from the morote grip than the ippon grip, thats why ippon is harder.

Ippon in my experience only works, like it works in wrestling, with good timing, its just not something you can force out of a static opponent like you can with morote.

Besides that you need a bette pulling action and a faster movement, its not that ippon is a difficult technique, its just that people dont really develop seoi nage technically because they are used to force it with morote which by itself creates a lot of opportunities and masks mistakes.

I have never met anyone who can succesfully pull ippon that cant apply in a no-gi enviroment, but i have met plenty of seoi throwers who cant throw no-gi, coincidentaly, they cant also throw ippon.
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Rod have you ever hit a standing seo be honest
 
BJJisthebest said:
Rod have you ever hit a standing seo be honest
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Yes, against shorter individuals, specially no-gi.

But dont get me wrong, i only pull it off because of height advantage allowing me to lift my opponents.
 
Rod1 said:
Yes, against shorter individuals, specially no-gi.

But dont get me wrong, i only pull it off because of height advantage allowing me to lift my opponents.
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You pull of standing seos... no gi against shorter opponents because your height advantage allows you to lift opponents... yea you have no idea what you are talking about, prolly had 50 lbs on the guy
 
BJJisthebest said:
You pull of standing seos... no gi against shorter opponents because your height advantage allows you to lift opponents... yea you have no idea what you are talking about, prolly had 50 lbs on the guy
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Wow really? have you been training judo for 6 months and now you have a severe case of Dunning-Kruger?

There is a big difference in the openings and opportunities for ippon and morote, thats why morote is 99% of the competitive seois out there.

morote can be forced and can create opportunities on its own, seoi players can pull morote in any direction of movement, when opponent is going sideways, backwards, forward, circling out, circling in, and standing defensive.

Ippon has a more limited window of opportunity, most people can only hit on opponent movement forwards, circling in and sideways positive (cant translate well).

ippon is more of a specialty throw and people who say they are just as proficient with any are just victims of dunning kruger.
 
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Rod1 said:
Wow really? have you been training judo for 6 months and now you have a severe case of Dunning-Kruger?
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I have no been training judo for 6 months. I have been training judo for years. I don't think I am better than you at a judo (I don't know you) but I do know you have no idea how to do a standing seo. Anyone who read that post, who routinely does standing seos, would laugh at you.
 
Rod1 said:
Wow really? have you been training judo for 6 months and now you have a severe case of Dunning-Kruger?

There is a big difference in the openings and opportunities for ippon and morote, thats why morote is 99% of the competitive seois out there.

morote can be forced and can create opportunities on its own, seoi players can pull morote in any direction of movement, when opponent is going sideways, backwards, forward, circling out, circling in, and standing defensive.

Ippon has a more limited window of opportunity, most people can only hit on opponent movement forwards, circling in and sideways positive (cant translate well).

ippon is more of a specialty throw and people who say they are just as proficient with any are just victims of dunning kruger.
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Ippon is definitely more of a specialty throw. You have no idea how to do it. As you made abundantly clear in your first post. I agree morote is more versatile. There is practically no risk in going for a drop seo so that is another reason it is better for competitions than ippon. In judo they reward you for failing at throws and sticking your butt in the air. But you instantly lose the match if you get counter thrown.
 
BJJisthebest said:
Ippon is definitely more of a specialty throw. You have no idea how to do it. As you made abundantly clear in your first post. I agree morote is more versatile. There is practically no risk in going for a drop seo so that is another reason it is better for competitions than ippon. In judo they reward you for failing at throws and sticking your butt in the air. But you instantly lose the match if you get counter thrown.
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No, its because with ippon you only control half the body, with morote you control your opponent entire upper body. This limited control makes it so that you need far more prequisites for throwing and gives your opponent far more room to avoid the ippon. Its the same with same side grip osoto and normal osoto.

Dont know the level of your judo, you can be far better than i am for sure, but there is a point in judo where you really need to drive your opponent to the ground hard or he will escape. I have met "ippon throwers" who despite sending me flying 3-5 times per randori could never get a single ippon on me, overolling and lifting becomes far more important in the standing seoi.
 
Rod1 said:
No, its because with ippon you only control half the body, with morote you control your opponent entire upper body. This limited control makes it so that you need far more prequisites for throwing and gives your opponent far more room to avoid the ippon.

Its the same with same side grip osoto and normal osoto.
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After you said you hit standing seos no gi, only against shorter guys because you "get more lift", I have determined you don't know anything about standing seos. You are completely talking out of your ass. This is the norm with most judo guys when it comes to throws they don't actually do in randori so carry on.
 
Rod1 said:
No, its because with ippon you only control half the body, with morote you control your opponent entire upper body. This limited control makes it so that you need far more prequisites for throwing and gives your opponent far more room to avoid the ippon. Its the same with same side grip osoto and normal osoto.

Dont know the level of your judo, you can be far better than i am for sure, but there is a point in judo where you really need to drive your opponent to the ground hard or he will escape. I have met "ippon throwers" who despite sending me flying 3-5 times per randori could never get a single ippon on me, overolling and lifting becomes far more important in the standing seoi.
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The "ippon throwers" you are referring to are people with my game. Never hit a single ippon on you? They send you flying who cares if you over rotated they are dominating you. Probably aren't paying attention to the silly judo rules.

*edit* you are probably one of those guys who gets thrown/ submitted and then gets up and gives the guy tips on how to finish the throw/submission better.
 
BJJisthebest said:
After you said you hit standing seos no gi, only against shorter guys because you "get more lift", I have determined you don't know anything about standing seos. You are completely talking out of your ass. This is the norm with most judo guys when it comes to throws they don't actually do in randori so carry on.
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Are you aware of the differences between Okano style ippon seoi and Koga style ippon seoi?
 
BJJisthebest said:
The "ippon throwers" you are referring to are people with my game. Never hit a single ippon on you? They send you flying who cares if you over rotated they are dominating you. Probably aren't paying attention to the silly judo rules.

*edit* you are probably one of those guys who gets thrown/ submitted and then gets up and gives the guy tips on how to finish the throw/submission better.
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Err no, if they send me flying and i manage to turn around and fall face down on top of them they are not dominating under ANY ruleset.

In Judo they get nothing, in BJJ they get an advantage but i end on top and in MMA or the street i end on top.

Also these guys need to go to the ground, because i can get out by circling in to their ippon due to the lack of control of my right body.

Again, stop trying to reinvent judo, ippon is not a popular seoi for a reason, not even among standing seoi.
 
Rod1 said:
Err no, if they send me flying and i manage to turn around and fall face down on top of them they are not dominating under ANY ruleset.

In Judo they get nothing, in BJJ they get an advantage but i end on top and in MMA or the street i end on top.

Also these guys need to go to the ground, because i can get out by circling in to their ippon due to the lack of control of my right body.

Again, stop trying to reinvent judo, ippon is not a popular seoi for a reason, not even among standing seoi.
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Yes I understand the difference between the various types of ippon.

You land on top of them after they launch you in the air with a seo? Thats cool you must be really acrobatic. That is awesome you will land on top of someone in the street after they try to do a koga seo nage.

No one is trying to reinvent judo, I am completely copying other people... I realize it is not a popular move, I do think it is funny when people that have no idea how to do it (you) try to explain it.
 
For the record, I'm a low kyu-grade seoi nage guy who is trying to expand his game because I realized that ippon seoi nage seems to be hittable for me (even full ippon level) against other low kyu grades, but against anyone more experienced (upper kyu and dan-grades) the prerequisites Rod1 was talking about are definitely apparent. (Plus I just think the Korean morote and tai o are badass)

I also fully understand what he means about "taller = more lift," as even though I'm a shorter guy and I don't have to get as low to get under my opponents' hips, any taller guy who DOES get under my hips can get more lift as they literally have more height with which to lift someone with.
 
BJJisthebest said:
Yes I understand the difference between the various types of ippon.

You land on top of them after they launch you in the air with a seo? Thats cool you must be really acrobatic. That is awesome you will land on top of someone in the street after they try to do a koga seo nage.

No one is trying to reinvent judo, I am completely copying other people... I realize it is not a popular move, I do think it is funny when people that have no idea how to do it (you) try to explain it.
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I dont do special acrobacy movements besides the standard in warmups all competitive teams i have trained do acrobatics during warmups and about half have trained the circle in to counter the ippon seoi nage.

Personally, since im taller than most people i circle out since a lot of people fail to trap my arm with the bicep most of the time.

But lets say we agree to disagree, im not a big seoi thrower because im slow and tall compared to people in my country.

And what i meant with lifting, is that once i get my arm under their armpit and turn they are no longer touching the floor, limiting their ability to circle in, at that point i just need to do is rollover.

Its how i personally do ippon seoi against the smaller folk and its entirely attribute dependant.
 
Rod1,

When I made this thread yours was one of the responses I was looking forward to. Personally, I'm not sure of the difference in Koga and Okano style seoi, unless I just don't know them by those names.

Honestly, I'm just going to have to give it a go with a better position for lift. I think that its likely that my problem stems from a mix of timing and poor lift. I'll try to get a video for you guys to critique, that will be more helpful than just trying to describe my problem.
 
jackson001 said:
Rod1,

When I made this thread yours was one of the responses I was looking forward to. Personally, I'm not sure of the difference in Koga and Okano style seoi, unless I just don't know them by those names.

Honestly, I'm just going to have to give it a go with a better position for lift. I think that its likely that my problem stems from a mix of timing and poor lift. I'll try to get a video for you guys to critique, that will be more helpful than just trying to describe my problem.
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I think timing is of far more importance when it comes to the ippon seoi nage.
 
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