Ippon Seoi Nage

[jackson001]

Are there any judo guys here that would consider their seoi to be above average? Mine needs some work!!

My morote is fine and dandy, but I think that is part of getting lower for it. With morote, I can get that satisfying CRACK!!! sound when uke hits the mat. With ippon, its more of a splat....


EDIT: Also, drop is essentially out of the question for me. I'll use it from time to time, but I feel like it impedes development more than anything else.

 

[Harukaze]

If your morote is fine but your ippon lacks velocity, I wonder if it has to do with your tsurite (lapel hand). Do you feel like you're having trouble loading up and locking down your opponent as your throw him? With morote, if your tsurite-side elbow is flexible enough, you get a great fulcrum with your forearm in his armpit and a great grip point on his lapel; with ippon, it can be tricky finding the right spot by uke's armpit to lock up as well as properly using the crook of your elbow as the fulcrum.

It sounds like you're not dropping as low for ippon as you are for morote? If so, there's no reason why that should be the case. The two throws are exactly the same except for where and what your tsurite is doing.

 

[jackson001]

I can't swear to it, but I think in the Judo Masterclass book for seoi, they say to get lower for morote. Thats what I've been coached to do in the past, as well.

As for the tsurite for ippon, that makes sense, I'll have to pay more attention to what I'm doing with it and report back. I will say that for ippon, I put far and away more emphasis on my hikite/sleeve hand. With morote, I feel like there is more of a 50/50 split.

With morote and being lower, I feel like I'm better able to generate power for the throw, so that is something I'll look at. I've also started a kettlebell routine, so hopefully that will pay some dividends, as well.

 

[Chr9is]

While a standing seoi-nage isn't my thing I would urge you to check out Travis Stevens version of it. He doesn't quite do the traditional "box step" into it by any means, but it is undeniably effective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkNiUU5NadE

^^^ I like this analysis.

I would also take a look at arm-spin wrestling variations. I know it's not "Judo" but it might help generate ideas for your body type/overall game.

 

[jackson001]

While a standing seoi-nage isn't my thing I would urge you to check out Travis Stevens version of it. He doesn't quite do the traditional "box step" into it by any means, but it is undeniably effective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkNiUU5NadE

^^^ I like this analysis.

I would also take a look at arm-spin wrestling variations. I know it's not "Judo" but it might help generate ideas for your body type/overall game.

I wrestled in HS, so I really don't have any aversion to drawing from wrestling. I happen to have subscribed to Cary Kolat's Youtube channel. The biggest snag I hit with looking at wrestling arm spins is that they seem to be more in-line with drop seoi, probably because of the folkstyle ruleset. If I'm not mistaken, I think you have to have a knee on the ground to execute a throw in wrestling without a penalty. I haven't participated in wrestling for a good 8-ish years though.

 

[Harukaze]

I can't swear to it, but I think in the Judo Masterclass book for seoi, they say to get lower for morote. Thats what I've been coached to do in the past, as well.

As for the tsurite for ippon, that makes sense, I'll have to pay more attention to what I'm doing with it and report back. I will say that for ippon, I put far and away more emphasis on my hikite/sleeve hand. With morote, I feel like there is more of a 50/50 split.

With morote and being lower, I feel like I'm better able to generate power for the throw, so that is something I'll look at. I've also started a kettlebell routine, so hopefully that will pay some dividends, as well.

The most successful ippon seoinage's I've ever experienced as uke were the ones that the Japanese and Cuban players used on me wherein they basically put their feet almost between mine and the smalls of the backs practically on my shins, leaving me absolutely no "wiggle room" to shuck my way out of the throw. Their grips were almost just for establishing and maintaining kuzushi as their entry position on the tsukuri was so low and deep that the kake pretty much just occurred when they stood up underneath me.

 

[Jonas g33k]

Harukaze, are you describing somekind of drop seoi? Because Japanese guys taught me a really low ippon seoi just like you describe.
When you go really low between the feets of uke, do you sit on your heels?

Oddly I can only do drop ippon and normal morote... I feel off balance with drop morote and normal ippon, I guess I should practice more.

 

[Chr9is]

Ah, I have no idea about penalties in wrestling. I've only learned a little bit.

I *think* Harukaze is referring to the seoi-nage variation where you box step into a squat position on the balls of your feet?

 

[Thai Otoshi]

Ah, I have no idea about penalties in wrestling. I've only learned a little bit.

I *think* Harukaze is referring to the seoi-nage variation where you box step into a squat position on the balls of your feet?

I think that's what he's referring to.

A visiting ikkyu from a local club close to mine does this all the time in uchi komi. He's never tried it on me in randori though.

 

[Uchi Mata]

Are you trying to throw ippon off a sleeve grip or off a lapel grip? Because I rarely see the sleeve grip style work well in high level competition, it's just too loose.

If you really want to develop a competition effective seio nage, I highly recommend watching all of this:



Plus Koga is just really awesome and fun to watch.

 

[Turismo]

I can't explain it that well. But check this video out.

You want to practice that footwork and rotation in a way that pins them to your back/shoulder going in and lifts them off their feet. From there it's all rotation. Keep everything tight.

 

[jackson001]

Are you trying to throw ippon off a sleeve grip or off a lapel grip? Because I rarely see the sleeve grip style work well in high level competition, it's just too loose.

If you really want to develop a competition effective seio nage, I highly recommend watching all of this:

Plus Koga is just really awesome and fun to watch.

I think I've seen part of A New Wind, I know I watched all of the Inoue video. It's been quite a while.

Both, but mostly off the lapel. I use morote if I turn to the left, ippon if I turn to the right. Ippon feels weak sauce whether I throw from a sleeve grip or a lapel grip, though.

Turismo:

I watched the video, and the seoi that he's doing looks like morote, but with the distance from the camera, not certain.

My grip on the lapel feels far and away tighter than when I turn in for a seoi on my left and use uke's extended arm. Part of me wants to batter through Uke like a wrecking ball to basically force the load, and the other part is saying that I'm just going to undo my kuzushi.

I do think that the power generation will have something to do with not being very low. For morote I'd compare my body position to something close to a half squat. For ippon, maybe somewhere around a quarter.

 

[Chungungo]

I think I've seen part of A New Wind, I know I watched all of the Inoue video. It's been quite a while.

Both, but mostly off the lapel. I use morote if I turn to the left, ippon if I turn to the right. Ippon feels weak sauce whether I throw from a sleeve grip or a lapel grip, though.

Turismo:

I watched the video, and the seoi that he's doing looks like morote, but with the distance from the camera, not certain.

My grip on the lapel feels far and away tighter than when I turn in for a seoi on my left and use uke's extended arm. Part of me wants to batter through Uke like a wrecking ball to basically force the load, and the other part is saying that I'm just going to undo my kuzushi.

I do think that the power generation will have something to do with not being very low. For morote I'd compare my body position to something close to a half squat. For ippon, maybe somewhere around a quarter.

When you have problems to go deep in morote you can grab the lapel lower...I am not a seoi nague guy specially because I am one of the tallest but with guys mi size I can get it pulling up exagerating the movement (while this is not always possible) or if not putting the leg like Illiadis do, supporting in the metatarsus...
If you are long legged don

 

[jackson001]

When you have problems to go deep in morote you can grab the lapel lower...I am not a seoi nague guy specially because I am one of the tallest but with guys mi size I can get it pulling up exagerating the movement (while this is not always possible) or if not putting the leg like Illiadis do, supporting in the metatarsus...
If you are long legged don

 

[Uchi Mata]

I think I've seen part of A New Wind, I know I watched all of the Inoue video. It's been quite a while.

Both, but mostly off the lapel. I use morote if I turn to the left, ippon if I turn to the right. Ippon feels weak sauce whether I throw from a sleeve grip or a lapel grip, though.

Turismo:

I watched the video, and the seoi that he's doing looks like morote, but with the distance from the camera, not certain.

My grip on the lapel feels far and away tighter than when I turn in for a seoi on my left and use uke's extended arm. Part of me wants to batter through Uke like a wrecking ball to basically force the load, and the other part is saying that I'm just going to undo my kuzushi.

I do think that the power generation will have something to do with not being very low. For morote I'd compare my body position to something close to a half squat. For ippon, maybe somewhere around a quarter.

The reason I posted the Koga vid was not so much because he uses the lapel, but rather because his footwork was so unique at the time but works so well for getting guys airborn. That split step entry he uses is a very fast way to get both deep and low, and you can generate a ton of leverage by bringing your front foot back towards your back foot as you pop your hips up from that stance. The only standing seio nages that work well for me are Koga style.

 

[Einarr]

My Seoi Nage sucks balls regardless of the variation, but I do like to feint for a lapel-side Ippon Seoi Nage and switch to Osoto Gari using the Ippon grip. Means I can attack for Osoto on either side regardless of the grip.

 

[Zankou]

I just feign learning seoi nage. That's my solution.

Guys who get ippon seoi to work seem to be able to get stupidly low, stupidly fast.

 

[BJJisthebest]

The standing koga style seo is by far my best take down in the gi. I was obsessed with that takedown for a couple of years.

Things to note: most people have no idea how to do this move (they have never done in in randori) but insist they know how to do the move because they can do it with a cooperating uke (they don't understand this move)

People claim it is attributes that allow people do this move, far from it this is a really lame excuse (unless you are MUCH taller than your opponent).

The move is very difficult to learn for several reasons:

You have to develop muscle memory but most people don't know how it works so they end up drilling a movement that is wrong/doesn't work. The movement is MUCH more difficult than drop seo (which is insanely easy to learn but extremely hard to pull of against a good opponent)

If the opponent sees it coming a mile away you will never pull it off in randori (just like any other move), this makes it much harder to learn because when you are a learning a move, you telegraph it and it won't work. But at the same time you are trying to focus on this one move.

Good things about this move: you get wayyyyy more drive from this throw than from a drop seo.
There are several tricky set ups for this throw (people that don't know this throw think people are just spamming it but there are subtle set ups).
The throw is very high impact (drop seo is a glorified trip imo, does zero damage to an opponent)

Bad things about this move: takes a ton of commitment to pull off (if your opponent is heavy it does take significantly more strength than a drop seo (because drop seo is more of a trip, standing seo is more of a throw).
When pull off successfully the throw is huge, when countered successfully that throw is also usually huge. Failed drop seos result in landing in the turtle position, failed standing seos result in you potentially getting body slammed.

In summary, much harder to learn than drop seo. Much higher risk/ much higher reward. MUCH more drive than drop seo.

 

[BJJisthebest]

One more thing about the standing seo nage. There are certain postures/stances you opponent can have that make the koga style seo extremely effective or extremely ineffective (almost impossible to do). Fortunately, these defensive postures usually open up other throws like the sode (watch Koga's highlights and it is very obvious that koga only goes for his seo against certain stances, other stances he will go with sode).

 

[Rod1]

You can get far more lifting from the morote grip than the ippon grip, thats why ippon is harder.

Ippon in my experience only works, like it works in wrestling, with good timing, its just not something you can force out of a static opponent like you can with morote (besides freak examples like Koga).

Besides that you need a bette pulling action and a faster movement, its not that ippon is a difficult technique, its just that people dont really develop seoi nage technically because they are used to force it with morote which by itself creates a lot of opportunities and masks mistakes.

I have never met anyone who can succesfully pull ippon that cant apply in a no-gi enviroment, but i have met plenty of seoi throwers who cant throw no-gi, coincidentaly, they cant also throw ippon.