In Rocky V, how was George Duke Washington the main problem?

[Ogata]

I understand he is supposed to be the Don King style promoter but I don't get why Rocky was so defensive about him. I mean in real life, he and promoters like him are necessary evil.

Don King would use money to facilitate and market an event, fighters would fight in that event. The person who financially facilitates and promotes it makes the lions share. Same thing with CEO of a company who doesn't work as hard as the employees but are putting their money out there.

Anyways, in this scene, Rocky is warning Tommy not to sign with Duke. So how the hell is he supposed to get a title shot and big PPV?

Floyd Mayweather had Bob Arum before he became his own promoter.

Ricardo Lopez had Don King as his manager and Naseem Hamed had Frank Warren as his manager.


I just don't understand this scene:

 

[TheRuthlessOne]

Once you know you know

On the surface, it might look like Rocky is looking out for the best interest of Tommy

But if you look closely you will see that Rocky is just selfish and a little jealous

He doesn't want Tommy to sign with Duke because Tommy is all Rocky has now

Rocky has lost everything else. Rocky has lost his fame and money and everything

Rocky is living his life through Tommy and if Tommy signs with Duke all that ends

Rocky is pretty much a piece of crap and using Tommy for his own benefit

 

[TheRuthlessOne]

I really hate Rocky 5

 

[BisexualMMA]

GWD's pitch to Tommy makes sense on its face (i.e. move up the ranks, Rocky can still train you). But I guess Rocky could see the writing on the wall, Tommy already starting to shift his loyalties, and figured Tommy being GWD's pimped out ho was inevitable once George got his hooks in.

I guess the main thing might have been GWD's willingness to bury Rocky's medical records to make a fight happen, when Rocky had brain damage on his CAT scans. It shows at the beginning that GWD doesn't care about his fighters' health or lives.

But yeah, on screen GWD was mostly just guilty of behaving in bad taste.

And, as Ruthless says, this also all coincides with Rocky living vicariously through Tommy...

 

[ufcfan4]

I really hate Rocky 5

The one p.o.s. among a series of otherwise good to awesome movies...

 

[Ogata]

Once you know you know

On the surface, it might look like Rocky is looking out for the best interest of Tommy

But if you look closely you will see that Rocky is just selfish and a little jealous

He doesn't want Tommy to sign with Duke because Tommy is all Rocky has now

Rocky has lost everything else. Rocky has lost his fame and money and everything

Rocky is living his life through Tommy and if Tommy signs with Duke all that ends

Rocky is pretty much a piece of crap and using Tommy for his own benefit

That's actually a pretty good way of looking at it. Although, Duke gave Rocky credit by saying he has done a wonderful job training him. It was the media that called Tommy "Rocky robot" or "Rocky puppet"

In Naseem Hamed's case, Brendan Ingle was the trainer/manager while Frank Warren was the promoter and marketer. Duke could have worked.

I really hate Rocky 5

A lot of people do. I don't think it was that bad, problem is, Ivan Drago was the GOAT opponent and you need something greater than him and Tommy Morrison was not it despite the fact that he was a bad mofo in real life.

GWD's pitch to Tommy makes sense on its face (i.e. move up the ranks, Rocky can still train you). But I guess Rocky could see the writing on the wall, Tommy already starting to shift his loyalties, and figured Tommy being GWD's pimped out ho was inevitable once George got his hooks in.

I guess the main thing might have been GWD's willingness to bury Rocky's medical records to make a fight happen, when Rocky had brain damage on his CAT scans. It shows at the beginning that GWD doesn't care about his fighters' health or lives.

But yeah, on screen GWD was mostly just guilty of behaving in bad taste.

And, as Ruthless says, this also all coincides with Rocky living vicariously through Tommy...

I get that George's position means he has to be a bad guy regardless if its fiction or not but you NEED him at that level. He is necessary evil.

As far as not caring goes, that's boxing, its supposed to be rough and brutal in nature. To be fair, Duke did finally backed off and let Rocky be. He came back because he saw Tommy rising to the top.

 

[BisexualMMA]

The one p.o.s. among a series of otherwise good to awesome movies...

I have Rocky 5 as kind of like Rambo 3 and Godfather 3... It's a piece of shit compared to the best in the series, but it's still not actually shit. It has good scenes and overall adds something to the series.

There's plenty wrong with it, but it's way preferable to things like Terminator 3,5,6 and the Star Wars jokes and Highlander sequels and Beverly Hills Cop 3.

 

[BisexualMMA]

A lot of people do. I don't think it was that bad, problem is, Ivan Drago was the GOAT opponent and you need something greater than him and Tommy Morrison was not it despite the fact that he was a bad mofo in real life.

He ended up being a great antagonist compared to Mason Dixon and Ricky Conlan. He just paled in comparison to fantastic opponents / characters in Rocky 1-4.

 

[ufcfan4]

I have Rocky 5 as kind of like Rambo 3 and Godfather 3... It's a piece of shit compared to the best in the series, but it's still not actually shit. It has good scenes and overall adds something to the series.

There's plenty wrong with it, but it's way preferable to things like Terminator 3,5,6 and the Star Wars jokes and Highlander sequels and Beverly Hills Cop 3.

Well said. And I'm right there with you with Godfather Part III. Shat on because of the comparison to the predecessors. In and of itself, it's a solid movie.

Rocky V is just the one I never really bothered to revisit. I didn't like it as a kid. I watched scenes here and there as I got older but it just did not appeal to me like the others did. I bet you're right though. If I were to go back and give it a watch, I'd still view it as the worst of the series but not as heinous.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Well said. And I'm right there with you with Godfather Part III. Shat on because of the comparison to the predecessors. In and of itself, it's a solid movie.

Rocky V is just the one I never really bothered to revisit. I didn't like it as a kid. I watched scenes here and there as I got older but it just did not appeal to me like the others did. I bet you're right though. If I were to go back and give it a watch, I'd still view it as the worst of the series but not as heinous.

It's one where I'd gladly skip through it and watch the parts I like and jump over the parts I don't.

Stuff I liked...

- Opening credits sequence
- Training Montage / Keep it Up (samples Eye of the Tiger)
- Go For It / Rising up the ranks montage
- Mickey flashbacks
- Take You Back rap remix
- Rocky having flashbacks to Drago punching him when Tommy speeds away on the street
- Final fight (theatrical version and unreleased workprint on YouTube)
- Every line delivery by Richard Gant

For some reason I really love in the final fight when Rocky has visions of Mickey and Mickey looks over and down like his joints are creaking and opens his eyes wide... They executed that final fight sequence pretty creatively and kind of just recycled the ideas (not quite as well) in Rocky 6.

And of course there's plenty I don't like about the movie...

 

[Ogata]

The one p.o.s. among a series of otherwise good to awesome movies...

I liked the idea of it and it was the first time that they brought a real legit world class boxer on the show as a prominent character. Ivan was way too awesome that it made Tommy Gunn look like shit.

He ended up being a great antagonist compared to Mason Dixon and Ricky Conlan. He just paled in comparison to fantastic opponents / characters in Rocky 1-4.

True and not to mention, he came after Ivan Drago who was too grand of an opponent. It was almost like a fictional character that belongs to a sci-fi movie as oppose to a boxing one.

Disappointed that he didn't train with kettlebells.

Well said. And I'm right there with you with Godfather Part III. Shat on because of the comparison to the predecessors. In and of itself, it's a solid movie.

Rocky V is just the one I never really bothered to revisit. I didn't like it as a kid. I watched scenes here and there as I got older but it just did not appeal to me like the others did. I bet you're right though. If I were to go back and give it a watch, I'd still view it as the worst of the series but not as heinous.

Better than 6 but I don't know I just didn't like Rocky was magically cured from his damages and decided to fight Tarver/Dixon.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Better than 6 but I don't know I just didn't like Rocky was magically cured from his damages and decided to fight Tarver/Dixon.

Yeah, you just gotta roll with that. He wasn't even supposed to fight in Rocky 2 because of permanent damage to his eye. Then he had four more Rocky movies where he fights and his eye is never an issue again.

 

[Ogata]

It's one where I'd gladly skip through it and watch the parts I like and jump over the parts I don't.

Stuff I liked...

- Opening credits sequence
- Training Montage / Keep it Up (samples Eye of the Tiger)
- Go For It / Rising up the ranks montage
- Mickey flashbacks
- Rocky having flashbacks to Drago punching him when Tommy speeds away on the street
- Final fight (theatrical version and unreleased workprint on YouTube)
- Every line delivery by Richard Gant

For some reason I really love in the final fight when Rocky has visions of Mickey and Mickey looks over and down like his joints are creaking and opens his eyes wide... They executed that final fight sequence pretty creatively and kind of just recycled the ideas (not quite as well) in Rocky 6.

And of course there's plenty I don't like about the movie...

See that's why I LOVED Rocky V! The whole Tommy driving away and Ivan flashbacking here and there.

We got to see Ivan Drago's damage take place. It wasn't some happy campy ending with "we can all change" in the beginning of V you see Rocky "broken" just like how Ivan said " I must break you" and in Creed 2 he mentions how " he broke things in me that hasn't been fixed"

Go to 4:07 to see it:




Rocky 5 was great not because of Tommy's character but the fact that it added to the legend of Ivan Drago which made Creed 2 more fun to watch.

 

[ufcfan4]

Yeah, you just gotta roll with that. He wasn't even supposed to fight in Rocky 2 because of permanent damage to his eye. Then he had four more Rocky movies where he fights and his eye is never an issue again.

haha. True. I always felt like with Rocky Balboa it was just like they sort of ignored Rocky V in the way that all these franchise reboots (some of which you mentioned in your post lol) think they are doing the purists a favor by pretending a certain sequel didn't happen but that the original film they are trying to emulate did.

People didn't like a lot about Rocky V? Sure, we'll downplay one of the core elements of the film. Cause, let's face it, no athletic commission in the country would be giving post-Drago Rocky a license if you follow the Rocky V logic.

 

[TheRuthlessOne]

That's all true and it's depressing as fuck

Rocky should have gone out on top like a true hero

Instead we are hit with reality

Rocky 5 is just a depressing movie and I don't like watching it

 

[ufcfan4]

It's one where I'd gladly skip through it and watch the parts I like and jump over the parts I don't.

Stuff I liked...

- Opening credits sequence
- Training Montage / Keep it Up (samples Eye of the Tiger)
- Go For It / Rising up the ranks montage
- Mickey flashbacks
- Take You Back rap remix
- Rocky having flashbacks to Drago punching him when Tommy speeds away on the street
- Final fight (theatrical version and unreleased workprint on YouTube)
- Every line delivery by Richard Gant

For some reason I really love in the final fight when Rocky has visions of Mickey and Mickey looks over and down like his joints are creaking and opens his eyes wide... They executed that final fight sequence pretty creatively and kind of just recycled the ideas (not quite as well) in Rocky 6.

And of course there's plenty I don't like about the movie...

Great call with the Mickey flashbacks. That was an element that I really liked, even as a kid. Mainly because Burgess Meredith was one of my favorite aspects of the first three films.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

Don King was a criminal son of a bitch who pistol whipped people and told them to sign contracts they should have had lawyers look at first

He’s never been anything but a bastard

 

[Philo-Publius]

I understand he is supposed to be the Don King style promoter but I don't get why Rocky was so defensive about him. I mean in real life, he and promoters like him are necessary evil.

Don King would use money to facilitate and market an event, fighters would fight in that event. The person who financially facilitates and promotes it makes the lions share. Same thing with CEO of a company who doesn't work as hard as the employees but are putting their money out there.

Anyways, in this scene, Rocky is warning Tommy not to sign with Duke. So how the hell is he supposed to get a title shot and big PPV?

Floyd Mayweather had Bob Arum before he became his own promoter.

Ricardo Lopez had Don King as his manager and Naseem Hamed had Frank Warren as his manager.


I just don't understand this scene:

I would say in the film it was more about egos than anything else. Don King was looked down upon in the early 1990's because he dominated boxing promotion back in the day, didn't leave much for other promoters, and lined his pockets at the expense of fighters who beat each other into disability and retirement. Now, that kind of promotion is the norm. The UFC has probably done it even better than Don King did. The UFC has all of the best MMA fighers locked up and pays most players peanuts in comparison to what the promotion collects.

 

[Philo-Publius]

The one p.o.s. among a series of otherwise good to awesome movies...

Rocky III was my least favorite. It was way more of a soap opera than Rocky V.

 

[Philo-Publius]

He ended up being a great antagonist compared to Mason Dixon and Ricky Conlan. He just paled in comparison to fantastic opponents / characters in Rocky 1-4.

As far as being icon, that is true. As far as being a true complex "villain" and complete bastard, Tommy Gunn was more complex than the others.