If you considered a MMA’s career in its entirety, Fedor and Silva cannot be in contention for GOAT

He lost because he came into a new era? Was it the era where he had to fight other guys from PRIDE (Werdum, Hendo)?

What you’re saying just doesn’t check out when you consider how the fights went. Subbed by Werdum, hit with an H-Bomb by Hendo…there’s nothing new era about that at all.

Yes and yes. I'll explain.

The new era means guys who could fight in a new ruleset and became well rounded. Werdum, Hendo and Bigfoot certainly evolved with the times.

Werdum: Baited Fedor into his triangle and Fedor, being unable to deal with the cage and a reckless inability to deal with his surroundings, bumped right into the fence while trying to escape the second attempt by Werdum and the result? Submission loss.

Hendo: Blasted Fedor early then controlled him against the fence. Fight got reset and credit to him for clipping Hendo, but what happens next? Once again he follows Hendo to the ground towards the fence and he is unable to control Hendo who is using the cage, then an old wrestling move to reverse him and boom. Over.


I mean just look at the two men you mentioned and how they evolved. Decision Dan a blanket wrestler turned into one of the most dangerous strikers in the sport. Werdum the butt scooter also becomes one of the best strikers @ HW. Fedor was always Fedor. Never changed.
 
Yes and yes. I'll explain.

The new era means guys who could fight in a new ruleset and became well rounded. Werdum, Hendo and Bigfoot certainly evolved with the times.

Werdum: Baited Fedor into his triangle and Fedor, being unable to deal with the cage and a reckless inability to deal with his surroundings, bumped right into the fence while trying to escape the second attempt by Werdum and the result? Submission loss.

Hendo: Blasted Fedor early then controlled him against the fence. Fight got reset and credit to him for clipping Hendo, but what happens next? Once again he follows Hendo to the ground towards the fence and he is unable to control Hendo who is using the cage, then an old wrestling move to reverse him and boom. Over.


I mean just look at the two men you mentioned and how they evolved. Decision Dan a blanket wrestler turned into one of the most dangerous strikers in the sport. Werdum the butt scooter also becomes one of the best strikers @ HW. Fedor was always Fedor. Never changed.
There’s just so many problems with this idea though.

  • Hendo was called Decision Dan because of a series of close split decisions that went his way, not because he had no finishing power. This was like, the late 90s-very early 2000s. He had several (T)KOs in PRIDE: Bustamante, Chonan, Gono, Wandy… the KO power wasn’t something that Hendo magically evolved in the cage, it was already there.
  • The cage wasn’t why Fedor got stuck in the triangle, he made a sloppy mistake and didn’t clear his arm fully out of Werdum’s guard. Rener and Ryron Gracie did a good breakdown on this.
  • Fedor *did* beat well rounded HWs, Arlovski for example.
  • This whole thing presupposes that fighters evolved and got more well rounded, but that’s not true in so many ways. Ciryl Gane isn’t well rounded, Stipe had no real grappling and never even attempted a submission that’s recall, Ngannou wasn’t even super well rounded, nevermind guys like Tuivasa or Rozenstruik.

Now, I do agree with you that the cage posed problems for Fedor, and we do see him make changes over time. I think Fedor fought better in a cage in his second run after he un-retired, personally. And I can agree that Werdum eventually became a very good striker, but that took AGES, it was a really long process.
 
People who hold Silva and Fedor in high esteem only looks at the pinnacle of their careers and not in its entirety.

I think a career has to be judged on its whole, and staying around too long and how brutal of a downfall you have absolutely affects your standings.

Fedor got sonned bt Henderson and big foot Silva, despite this not being “prime” Fedor, he got beat and beat badly by them. His run in Bellator wasn’t great either.

You cannot pretend the later part of his career didn’t happen just because he was older or out of his prime.

The same with Anderson Silva, his post leg break after losing to Weidman, he lost to far too many mediocre fighters that tarnished his career.

GSP and Jones are in a different league because they had a long peak and never stuck around long enough for a horrible ending. Their records are far superior.

Khabib didn’t stick around long enough, and Fedor and Silva stuck around too long allowing a lot of journeyman fighters to beat them.

Do you agree? Do you have to evaluate a career in its whole, or do you only look at them at the peak in their careers?

For those that disagree, let me ask you, can you not tarnished your legacy by losing just because you are out of your prime?
Jones spent a career on GEAR fighting manlets and past prime greats at LHW despite being a career HW. Ducked Tom. He’s the GOAT at gear and eye pokes.
 
There’s just so many problems with this idea though.

  • Hendo was called Decision Dan because of a series of close split decisions that went his way, not because he had no finishing power. This was like, the late 90s-very early 2000s. He had several (T)KOs in PRIDE: Bustamante, Chonan, Gono, Wandy… the KO power wasn’t something that Hendo magically evolved in the cage, it was already there.
  • The cage wasn’t why Fedor got stuck in the triangle, he made a sloppy mistake and didn’t clear his arm fully out of Werdum’s guard. Rener and Ryron Gracie did a good breakdown on this.
  • Fedor *did* beat well rounded HWs, Arlovski for example.
  • This whole thing presupposes that fighters evolved and got more well rounded, but that’s not true in so many ways. Ciryl Gane isn’t well rounded, Stipe had no real grappling and never even attempted a submission that’s recall, Ngannou wasn’t even super well rounded, nevermind guys like Tuivasa or Rozenstruik.

Now, I do agree with you that the cage posed problems for Fedor, and we do see him make changes over time. I think Fedor fought better in a cage in his second run after he un-retired, personally. And I can agree that Werdum eventually became a very good striker, but that took AGES, it was a really long process.
-I mentioned Decision Dan to highlight the fact that he was more of a wrestler than a striker, and that he evolved into a brutal striker who could stand and grapple with anyone ring or cage. His UFC fight against Jackson was amazing. I didn't say his power magically evolved. He as a fighter did. fedor didn't.

-Watch closely. It wasn't the sole reason but he did get himself bumped against the fence which worsened his situation. He was wild, unrefined and reckless and You already admitted below he couldn't deal with the cage. it was just an obvious sign that he failed to evolve. And he may have done better in Bellator later but that's because he was no longer fighting top 5 world class HW's like Werdum and Bigfoot.

-Arlovski was not a well rounded heavyweight, he had a sambo background which he neglected. He was almost a completely pure striker by the time he fought fedor. Fedor certainly never beat a great well rounded fighter. He may have beaten a lower level well rounded opponent but never a great one. It is no surprise to me he lost to 3 well rounded great fighters in strikeforce.

-I don't disagree with you that a lot of HW's today are one dimensional. Mentioning Stipe is ignorant. He was a great grappler and used it to destroy guys on the ground like Hunt and Ngannou, and also used his defensive grappling against Olympian DC and submission threats like Overeem. Stipe IMO is still the GOAT HW and the main reason is because he was a threat everywhere except submissions I think that is forgivable in an era where subs went out of the game. You think Fedor's old tricks like his armbar was gonna work against 2010's HW's? This aint old man Coleman or Hong Man Choi inside a boxing ring. I'm talking 2010's Cain, JDS, Ubereem, Stipe, Werdum, TRT BF etc. in a cockfighting cage.
 
Last edited:
-I mentioned Decision Dan to highlight the fact that he was more of a wrestler than a striker, and that he evolved into a brutal striker who could stand and grapple with anyone ring or cage. His UFC fight against Jackson was amazing. I didn't say his power magically evolved. He as a fighter did. fedor didn't.
But this is just wrong on multiple levels. Hendo is an all time great, but he had fought mostly the same way for years. Fedor wasn’t some primitive fighter, he was totally well rounded: fast, slick combinations, KO power, great head movement, solid TDD, great takedowns, incredible sweeps and scrambles, great submissions.

His style was made for the ring, and adjusting that style to the cage takes time. It seems like you’re generous to Werdum who took 12-14 years to be a really good striker, but you come down on Fedor for not having a magically evolved style for the cage when his previous 32 fights were all in a ring. It takes time, and some people (e.g. Mirko) never really adapted well.

-Watch closely. It wasn't the sole reason but he did get himself bumped against the fence which worsened his situation. He was wild, unrefined and reckless and You already admitted below he couldn't deal with the cage. it was just an obvious sign that he failed to evolve. And he may have done better in Bellator later but that's because he was no longer fighting top 5 world class HW's like Werdum and Bigfoot.
I know which sequence you mean, and it’s hard to say how much the cage played a role—but what I’m saying is that Fedor already was free of the triangle once prior to that, but failed to pull his arm fully out of Werdum’s guard. He didn’t get stuck in the triangle because of the cage, it was his declining grappling that got him stuck.

-Arlovski was not a well rounded heavyweight, he had a sambo background which he neglected. He was almost a completely pure striker by the time he fought fedor. Fedor certainly never beat a great well rounded fighter. He may have beaten a lower level well rounded opponent but never a great one. It is no surprise to me he lost to 3 well rounded great fighters in strikeforce.
But he didn’t, really. Werdum was not super well rounded at that time, and Werdum won the fight with the BJJ bat had brought him to the dance for years. Fedor didn’t perform as well because he was riddled with injuries that were taking a toll, and his grappling and striking had both declined.

-I don't disagree with you that a lot of HW's today are one dimensional. Mentioning Stipe is ignorant. He was a great grappler and used it to destroy guys on the ground like Hunt and Ngannou, and also used his defensive grappling against Olympian DC and submission threats like Overeem. Stipe IMO is still the GOAT HW and the main reason is because he was a threat everywhere except submissions I think that is forgivable in an era where subs went out of the game. You think Fedor's old tricks like his armbar was gonna work against 2010's HW's? This aint old man Coleman or Hong Man Choi inside a boxing ring. I'm talking 2010's Cain, JDS, Ubereem, Stipe, Werdum, TRT BF etc. in a cockfighting cage.
I wasn’t calling Stipe one dimensional; he could box and he could wrestle well. He wasn’t some grappling ace though, he was never a threat to submit anyone, or even sweep anyone, really.

Do you think it’s only fighters like Choi that get armbarred? Aspinall subbed Volkov with an armbar just a couple of years ago. Fedor also had guillotine submissions, Jones handled Gane easily with a gilly. Speaking of Jones, he nearly got armbarred by Vitor, and Vitor isn’t even known for subbing people off his back. Jones is lucky that wasn’t Fedor he was fighting, or Jones’ arm would be hanging over Fedor’s fireplace in Stary Oskol like a trophy. Shit, Vadim Nemkov almost armbarred Ferreira just a couple weeks ago (side choked him instead).

I’ll grant you that Fedor probably wouldn’t sub people as often, but there’s this old POV I see on Sherdog a lot that these submissions are some outdated dinosaur shit that just won’t work today, and that’s just recency bias. People get subbed all the time, even at elite levels. Sambo clearly still works very well also.
 
Okay fair enough, but you cannot argue that in their prime they were GOAT candidates.

Anyone who says Cain or Stipe is the HW GOAT is dumber than a bag of rocks. It's Fedor, no one else.
 
This is retarded. It's like arguing that Federer isn't a GOAT candidate in tennis because he didn't win a grand slam title in his last 4 years in his career.

Or that Messi and Ronaldo aren't GOAT candidates because they went to play in the US and the desert at the end of their career.

Or Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods etc.

I could go on but I think it's pretty obvious already your point is completely retarded.
 
Tell me why Silva losing like 6 fights in a row didn’t tarnish his legacy? The reason is that he’s old so those losses don’t count?

Only fights that happened before he turned old counts toward his record?

You have to ignore many years of Silva’s career to consider him GOAT. Same with Fedor.
Why forfeiting fight doesn't tarnish legacy?
 
I know im crazy for saying this but I believe Anderson never really wanted to win the fights he lost. In his prime he was Neo and untouchable but after he "don't fight for belt anymore" came in on him, he started losing. Anderson in my opinion is number one of all time hands down. Fedor is either second or third, he got hurt in his fights, Anderson made it look like he was having fun when he was dominating.
 
Having skimmed through whatever this entire thing is...

1. Putting Fedor and Silva "somewhere in the top 10-15" all-time is simply retarded. I try not to use that word but it's the only word that describes that thought process and opinion.

2. I do agree, Jones and GSP are 1-2 all-time however.

3. Hilarious to see a mod talk shit to a guy who for some reason spaced out 8 sentences instead of creating a single paragraph in the original post.
 
Having skimmed through whatever this entire thing is...

1. Putting Fedor and Silva "somewhere in the top 10-15" all-time is simply retarded. I try not to use that word but it's the only word that describes that thought process and opinion.

2. I do agree, Jones and GSP are 1-2 all-time however.

3. Hilarious to see a mod talk shit to a guy who for some reason spaced out 8 sentences instead of creating a single paragraph in the original post.
Damn, I feel like I haven’t seen you around in forever! Hope all is well.
 
So Georges lost to Serra, got a gift against Penn in their first fight, then cherry picked Bisping

Detracting from georges is a fools errand, He corrected 2 of these. Say whatever about bisping, but gsp came off the couch after a 3+ year hiatus.

I know your intent isn't to detract from george, but rather make this guy feel stupid (fair play), but knowing that this is the best you (or really anyone) can do to detract from george does strengthen his point.

I have GSP/Fedor as 1a 1b, Fwiw
 
Detracting from georges is a fools errand, He corrected 2 of these. Say whatever about bisping, but gsp came off the couch after a 3+ year hiatus.

I know your intent isn't to detract from george, but rather make this guy feel stupid (fair play), but knowing that this is the best you (or really anyone) can do to detract from george does strengthen his point.

I have GSP/Fedor as 1a 1b, Fwiw

My point is, you can hate on anyone in hindsight and the criteria is subjective. Also, that TS is a can.
 
In general we have to take their best run. Some fighters continue fighting past their primes, and that shouldn't necessarily be held against them.

Who other than Fedor would be the HW GOAT? No other heavyweight has been able to put together a long run like Fedor, even if we discount all his wins against cans. I think eventually a UFC HW champion will get 6+ consecutive title defenses, and at that point will be considered to have surpassed Fedor.

Things are different when it comes to Silva. IMO he's discounted because of PED failures. I think we should have zero tolerance on failed PED tests.
 
They took nearly all fights. Fedor is most likely your favorite fighters, favorite fighter.
 
Back
Top