If waldimir beats joe Louis record would you rank him top ten of all time?

[zuffa zack**]

George Chuvalo thought Frazier would go through both Klitschkos "like a paper bag". I'd have to agree, at least until someone comes along with some real talent, which I don't see. I don't see anyone on the horizon. And Joe Fraziers best weight was 205. I suppose if the klitchkos have the kind of power that foreman had then they could kayo him but I don't think I've seen that kind of power has anyone else?

I wouldn't take an old timers word on comparisons like "Old timers vs the present" very seriously

One of the things I've learned from Boxing history is that the further back you go into Boxing until a certain point (like 1900) every generation claims to be better than the other. I've read guys who Boxed in the early 1900s saying that guys from the 30s cant Box. Then the guys who Boxed in the 30s say the guys from the 60s cant Box. And so on.

 

[Factory]

I would rank him about the same as Tyson.

This means 11-14 or something like that.

 

[The Fan Man]

PED both legal and illegal. Better nutrition. Better training. These 3 alone can make a huge difference.


You can say the same about athletics- fundamentally very little has changed in 100years. Whem Joe Frazier was around no man could run 100m in under 10seconds. Now the World record is 9.58, and 80+ men have broken 10 seconds.


In reference to the number of fights, I guess you could look at it both ways. But there is no way anyone could fight 10+ a year against top competition and not feel the effects.

If you can increase your ring time, whether it be against inferior competition or in the amateurs, you have the advatage of honing your craft with less risks of injury/ damage.

The technology in track is a little different with the greatest difference being the Mondo synthetic track instead of the cinder track that guys like Bob Hayes and Harry Jerome ran on. 10.0 on a cinder surface is around a 9.8 on today's surface.

Also, what training technique does Emanuel Steward utilize that Eddie Futch didn't?

 

[mozfonky]

problem with boxing is, there is no quantifiable way to measure most of the skills and even the athletic skills don't really mean much. Been lots of great athletes that could not fight a lick, both in and out of boxing. How can you measure the improvements in how a fighter slips, parries, blocks or sees openings, anticipates weakness...soo many things which won't be told in lifting a weight or running a hundred yards. How can we measure whether boxers have better stamina or not? We can't do it by measuring how well they can run because that is so unspecific to having stamina in the ring. The best things we can do is watch the tapes and that is still subjective which is why we have to argue nonstop about then and now. We don't really argue whether Jesse Owens is faster than Usain Bolt or whoever is the fastest man today because we have a concrete measurement which is fairly consistent in comparison to boxing. I guess what I look for are a range of things and mentality being 90% of it all, today I don't see the skills, I have also thought about watching older/newer fights and comparing things like punch stats to measure stamina. At least the number of punches thrown would indicate who's in better condition to some extent. Do fighters today hit harder on average? I guess we could look at average kayo ratios. It's enough to keep us arguing for awhile.

 

[LEWIS540]

The technology in track is a little different with the greatest difference being the Mondo synthetic track instead of the cinder track that guys like Bob Hayes and Harry Jerome ran on. 10.0 on a cinder surface is around a 9.8 on today's surface.

Also, what training technique does Emanuel Steward utilize that Eddie Futch didn't?

Re athletics- what about non track events then? Throws, jumps, road running?

I don't mean specific boxing training per se (although I'm sure today they are more advanced- benefit of learning from the past, whilst incorporating new ideas). i mean modern techniques to get bigger, fitter, faster, stronger etc

 

[The Fan Man]

Re athletics- what about non track events then? Throws, jumps, road running?

I don't mean specific boxing training per se (although I'm sure today they are more advanced- benefit of learning from the past, whilst incorporating new ideas). i mean modern techniques to get bigger, fitter, faster, stronger etc

The best 400m hurdler in 1976 was Edwin Moses with a time of 47.63 while the best in 2012 is Javier Culson who ran 47.92.

Bob Beamon jumped 8.90 meters in 1968 while Greg Rutherford reached 8.35 in 2012.

Brian Oldfield put a shot 22.86 meters in 1975 while Reece Hoffa and Ryan Witting share the lead at 22.00 meters in 2012.

Also in '75, Joao Carlos de Oliveira had a triple jump of 17.89 meters while 2012 leader Will Claye got to 17.70.

The best mile in 1975 was 3:49.40 by John Walker and the best in 2012 was 3:49.22 by Asbel Kiprop. Aww...nuts, missed that one. But you get the point. If these great training methods and technologies aren't uniform in making people run faster, jump better, and shot put further then why would people believe that there is a uniform improvement to a sport that is so reliant on experience, intelligence, and toughness like boxing?

 

[LEWIS540]

The best 400m hurdler in 1976 was Edwin Moses with a time of 47.63 while the best in 2012 is Javier Culson who ran 47.92.

Bob Beamon jumped 8.90 meters in 1968 while Greg Rutherford reached 8.35 in 2012.

Brian Oldfield put a shot 22.86 meters in 1975 while Reece Hoffa and Ryan Witting share the lead at 22.00 meters in 2012.

Also in '75, Joao Carlos de Oliveira had a triple jump of 17.89 meters while 2012 leader Will Claye got to 17.70.

The best mile in 1975 was 3:49.40 by John Walker and the best in 2012 was 3:49.22 by Asbel Kiprop. Aww...nuts, missed that one. But you get the point. If these great training methods and technologies aren't uniform in making people run faster, jump better, and shot put further then why would people believe that there is a uniform improvement to a sport that is so reliant on experience, intelligence, and toughness like boxing?

1) It will never be a uniform improvement.
2) 2012 is not finished yet.
3) All the records you listed have been comfortably beaten- just not in 2012. (The long jump was both an anomally and at altitude).
4) you are going back 30-40 years. Try going back 50 years. 100 years etc. The further you go back, the bigger the difference.

It is inevitable that in 100 years from now we will have evolved further as a species, thus human limits will increase.


But as has been said, it is all speculation, so I will bow out.

 

[mozfonky]

you mention evolution, there was some article fairly recently that said some scientists measured the footprints in some fossilized sand and concluded that they ran faster than anyone today could. Evolution must be quirky as hell because human beings have not and never have been the strongest and fastest and I thought the trend as a species was to move more towards brain instead of brawn. That is to say I thought the more "civilized" and advanced we became the further we got from the raw strength required of the animal kingdom.