If Izzy were to tie or pass Anderson's record at MW...

[Mark McMichael]

Please, answer the question.

You talk as if using alleged "mind sets" as valid argument to discredit wins is the most normal and regular thing to do.

Ok. Now I ask you: if that's the case, can you bring other notable examples where you use the mind set argument to discredit any win? Or just, surprisingly, happens to be with Silva, and only in this case?

Is this so common argument applicable to any of GSPs wins? Let me case, in this case his opponents were always strong as ever mentally, they had not personal/familym issues going on. They were in the best mind set possible......right?

I don't live my life for Whataboutism as you do.

There is no denying the depth of mental issues Forrest was dealing with after losing to Rashad and him turning to drugs to try and deal with them. He was an emotional and mental mess, and that is true even if other fighters at points in time (as I am sure some are) are also dealing with big issues.

 

[Mark McMichael]

I didnt discredit maia, I said maia was green in mma, which he was. he also wasnt a wrestler.

no, anderson did not fight plenty of good wrestlers. a few good grapplers, yes. henderson and chael are the only real wrestlers he ever fought until weidman.

So those are two, who are not just a random couple but two of the very best wrestlers ever in the division.

Then you can play around the "wrestler" label as much as you wish, but when you pretend to give full credit to Fitch as a credible wrestler while discrediting Maia as such, and then we see Maia totally dominating Fitch in clinch and ground positions, that's how strong your argument around the "real wrestler" label is, mate.

You can try to discredit Silva with that argument as I could do the same with GSP not facing stylistically bad match ups until Hendricks.

When we are talking about two guys who remained champ for so long taking on all comers, trying to nitpick as you do is absurd. It's absurd doing it to downplay Silva, as it is for GSP

Hendo was no longer a wrestler by that point.

He went from a guy who could out grapple and hold down top HW grapplers for 5 rounds to win very controversial decisions, thus earning himself the nickname Decision Dan, to a guy who became HBomb Dan and who is forced to grapple would quickly gas out and get out grappled by WW's.

No insult to Dan as HBomb Dan was the most exciting but to pretend Anderson faced a grappler in Dan is just wrong.

Same thing happened to BJ Penn when he became overly reliant on his striking. He lost all his prior great grappling, bjj cardio. if he was forced to grapple later in his career he would gas out and slow and become vulnerable just as Hendo did.

 

[Mark McMichael]

As @pankrat the GSP hater tries to paint a picture that GSP opponents during his UFC run, not moving up to MW as some kind of negative lest we not forget that whenever GSP and Andersons UFC opponents met, GSP's opponents were winning that fight most times.

Chris Leben lost to Josh Koschek
Hendo lost to Shields
Patrick Cote lost to Thiago Alves
Damian Maia lost to Shields
Okami lost to Fitch
Okami lost to Shields

Honorable mentions :

Bisping beat Anderson but lost to GSP
Thales Leites lost to Martin Kampmann (who deserved a title shot against GSP imo)


Help me out here Sherbro's as I am pretty sure at least one of Anderson's opponents scored a win over at least one of GSP's???

Oh. Maia beat Condit and Fitch.

 

[Fioretti]

That’s one of the weirdest things about Sherdog that I found after I joined. I’m a huge fan of Fedor, GSP, Anderson, and Aldo. This whole thing where fans of one GOAT hate on another GOAT is so odd to me.

Seriously, man. Most would automatically assume that I dislike GSP because I hate his fuckin ridiculous fans so much and like shutting down their bullshit, but I'm actually a fan. It's the new-age mentality of "if you say anything remotely constructive or that can be taken as negative in any way you're a hater/racist/bigot/fascist/asshole/enemy and we will attack you and everything you love until you switch camps and become one of us" type of shit.

Fucking nuttier than squirrel turds.

 

[BFoe]

Seriously, man. Most would automatically assume that I dislike GSP because I hate his fuckin ridiculous fans so much and like shutting down their bullshit, but I'm actually a fan. It's the new-age mentality of "if you say anything remotely constructive or that can be taken as negative in any way you're a hater/racist/bigot/fascist/asshole/enemy and we will attack you and everything you love until you switch camps and become one of us" type of shit.

Fucking nuttier than squirrel turds.

Yeah, same here. Just because I’m a Fedor guy doesn’t mean I’m not a huge fan of Silva, GSP, Aldo, Khabib, Mighty Mouse, etc. The only GOAT candidate I’m not really a fan of is Jones, and that’s just because of his personality, not his ability. I enjoy his fights, especially in his younger years.

 

[maximus__]

... a lot of discussions would talk about how Anderson had 3 LHW fights (and won them all) as Izzy had just one and lost.

Anderson's wins at LHW were James Irvin (14-4 by the time he fought Anderson), Griffin (16-5, former LHW champ) and Bonnar (15-7).

Meanwhile, Izzy fought and lost to Blachowicz (27-8 and LHW champion when they fought).

Even thought they both fought former champions in Griffin and Jan, none of those champions were regarded as anything special and none held on to their title for long.

So with that in mind, how do their LHW opponents compare? Would you rather fight Irvin, Griffin and Bonnar or Jan?

Andersons run at LHW is better. Forest was as good as Jan was in his time and had much better wins over Shogun and Rampage before getting caught against Rashad(he was winning till then). Shogun and Rampage were consensus top 5 LHW and Rampage had the belt.
Jan had a good late run to the belt against MWs in Jacare and Rockhold at the ends of their careers (trying LHW),Corey Anderson and Reyes and then 1 defence against Izzy before getting starched by out of prime Glover.

Pay respect where it's due but part of Andersons argument over Izzy is the success at LHW. Izzy couldn't pull it off, he (like Usman) thought they could beat Jan who is one of the weakest champs in the UFC. He only got the belt because Jones is an idiot. I loved watching him fight though so I hope he finds what got him that belt again.

 

[r-harper-1]

Anderson fought Griffin as an Ex Champ, who was just viscously KO'd one fight prior, losing his belt, and who was dealing with severe depression and on drugs as he was beginning his slide into irrelevance.

Izzy fought Blachowicz at the peak of his LHW run, in his prime and as LHW champ.

Massive difference TS. that somehow you miss.


The bigger challenge TS is how do we compare Anderson and Izzy's MW runs as Anderson fought for the title in his second fight and as such most of his MW fights were defenses, and a lot of them against weaker opponents. Izzy was well underway to clearing out the MW division before he got the belt, and as such many of his best wins were not defenses.

So there is no way Izzy needs as many defenses as Anderson but how many is enough?

Not Anderson fault Forrest didn’t show up ready ….

 

[Fioretti]

Andersons run at LHW is better. Forest was as good as Jan was in his time and had much better wins over Shogun and Rampage before getting caught against Rashad(he was winning till then). Shogun and Rampage were consensus top 5 LHW and Rampage had the belt.
Jan had a good late run to the belt against MWs in Jacare and Rockhold at the ends of their careers (trying LHW),Corey Anderson and Reyes and then 1 defence against Izzy before getting starched by out of prime Glover.

Pay respect where it's due but part of Andersons argument over Izzy is the success at LHW. Izzy couldn't pull it off, he (like Usman) thought they could beat Jan who is one of the weakest champs in the UFC. He only got the belt because Jones is an idiot. I loved watching him fight though so I hope he finds what got him that belt again.

Both Shogun and Rampage were ranked #1 LHW and #2 p4p when Forrest beat them. He had to beat the #1 TWICE (who was also #2 p4p) to earn his rank. Still underappreciated years later.

 

[PabloChacon]

Know how I know a newbie casual started this thread?

 

[maximus__]

Both Shogun and Rampage were ranked #1 LHW and #2 p4p when Forrest beat them. He had to beat the #1 TWICE (who was also #2 p4p) to earn his rank. Still underappreciated years later.

You can't even say they were out of their prime either. Both went on to have major success post Forest and hung around the top 10 for years.
LHW and HW basically remained the same for 5-15 years with a few additions, with the lower weight classes having more movement.

 

[El Panteron]

That’s one of the weirdest things about Sherdog that I found after I joined. I’m a huge fan of Fedor, GSP, Anderson, and Aldo. This whole thing where fans of one GOAT hate on another GOAT is so odd to me.

They should try team sports.
Hating on Juventus is rooted in my personality at this point and look at me, well adjusted and succesful.

(All jokes aside I do think that rivalry with a team is fun while hating on some particular guy you don't know and doesn't affect your life... ehhh)

 

[Mark McMichael]

Not Anderson fault Forrest didn’t show up ready ….

Totally agree.

But acknowledging that does not change the reality on the ground though.

Time and again you see guys like pankrat above who feel the need to try and diminish the win of GSP over Bisping while maximizing the win of Anderson over Forrest.

Fact is that Bisping was at the peak of his prime run, with his biggest wins over his biggest names at MW and he was the rightful Champ when GSP beat him.

Forrest, was a guy just KO'd viscously KO'd one fight earlier, no longer champ and dealing with severe depression and on his slide to irrelevance.

So if you were inclined to give Anderson credit in the old GOAT discussions, back when Anderson was in the mix alongside GSP, as many Anderson fans were... and if you were inclined to criticize GSP for not going up... then there is no way you don't give GSP many times more the credit for his win over Bisping than you give Anderson for his win over Forrest. As it was a way better win, in every way measurable.

 

[HeDidn'tWantTheFight]

Two of Izzy's title defenses have been questionable decision victories where he threw leg kicks, and if you want to include the Gastelum fight, that's fine, but realize that Anderson never took damage like that during his run.

He's even further behind Anderson than his record indicates

 

[cooks1]

Anderson fought Griffin as an Ex Champ, who was just viscously KO'd one fight prior, losing his belt, and who was dealing with severe depression and on drugs as he was beginning his slide into irrelevance.

Izzy fought Blachowicz at the peak of his LHW run, in his prime and as LHW champ.

Massive difference TS. that somehow you miss.


The bigger challenge TS is how do we compare Anderson and Izzy's MW runs as Anderson fought for the title in his second fight and as such most of his MW fights were defenses, and a lot of them against weaker opponents. Izzy was well underway to clearing out the MW division before he got the belt, and as such many of his best wins were not defenses.

So there is no way Izzy needs as many defenses as Anderson but how many is enough?

He does need as many defenses as Anderson to be in the same GOAT conversation. And even with those, he would need to start winning far more impressively. 8 of Silva's 10 defenses were finishes.

Anderson had a substantial career against top competition in major orgs before even getting to the UFC. That is why he did not need to climb the ranks. He already had. Izzy was 30 when he won the UFC title. 1 year younger with 4-5 fewer fights than Anderson. There is no question Anderson had the far better resume when he first fought for the title.

 

[r-harper-1]

Totally agree.

But acknowledging that does not change the reality on the ground though.

Time and again you see guys like pankrat above who feel the need to try and diminish the win of GSP over Bisping while maximizing the win of Anderson over Forrest.

Fact is that Bisping was at the peak of his prime run, with his biggest wins over his biggest names at MW and he was the rightful Champ when GSP beat him.

Forrest, was a guy just KO'd viscously KO'd one fight earlier, no longer champ and dealing with severe depression and on his slide to irrelevance.

So if you were inclined to give Anderson credit in the old GOAT discussions, back when Anderson was in the mix alongside GSP, as many Anderson fans were... and if you were inclined to criticize GSP for not going up... then there is no way you don't give GSP many times more the credit for his win over Bisping than you give Anderson for his win over Forrest. As it was a way better win, in every way measurable.

Gsp sat on the sidelines and waited for a weak Mw champ ….still a very good win , especially with the layoff and weight class change …but not the monumental win Gsp lovers would have you believe …..I put Anderson win over Griffin in the same category….a very good win , but not a win that leads me to believe Anderson would’ve ran through the 205 division as some of his delusional fans see it ….I must admit I’m a Anderson fanboy …but try too be objective lol

 

[markg171]

If Izzy ties/beats Anderson's record, considering he has:

• far more wins pre-reign than Anderson had pre-reign/has post reign
• has a win over Anderson himself
• has far less losses

It would be absolutely moronic to rank Anderson ahead of him. You might be able to say Anderson was better P4P considering he has top 5 wins in 3 weight classes, but that's a pretty clear consolation prize.

Izzy would have more wins, same or longer reign, win head to head, and less losses. You cannot objectively put Anderson ahead.

 

[VaselineSweep]

Irvin and Bonner are basically irrelevant to the resume, but Forest and Jan are actually extremely comparable.

Whatever level of difference there is, it ain't the difference between a highlight reel KO + total domination win vs. a competitive but straightforward UD loss.

/Thread

Except maybe Forrest is pillow-fisted compared to Jan, so Silva can do crazy stuff standing up without risking a KO whereas Jan has very heavy hands.

 

[Brueskie]

Izzy simply isn't as exciting as Silva was, records aside. Let's compare highlight reels instead.

 

[Mga223]

People forget how many people picked griffin to beat Silva.

It was ridiculous....

The Jan fight showed, Israel isn't some amazing striker that can ko or beat anyone at any point and when he doesn't have a big reach advantage he doesn't look amazing.

Silva at LHW looked unbeatable
Israel at LHW looked subpar compared to MW.

 

[Mark McMichael]

He does need as many defenses as Anderson to be in the same GOAT conversation. And even with those, he would need to start winning far more impressively. 8 of Silva's 10 defenses were finishes.

Anderson had a substantial career against top competition in major orgs before even getting to the UFC. That is why he did not need to climb the ranks. He already had. Izzy was 30 when he won the UFC title. 1 year younger with 4-5 fewer fights than Anderson. There is no question Anderson had the far better resume when he first fought for the title.

I don't think we should count Anderson's pre UFC run as part of his UFC GOAT MW resume or his MW resume at all when Izzy addressing the question of when does Izzy pass him.

I mean fine, if we do but then his losses from that time frame are all in too. Takase and Chonan loss do more to harm that run then the rest helps it.

I would stick to just his UFC run, if I wanted to make Anderson look best.

And I am guessing you have never peaked at how substantial a career Izzy had before the UFC as he had almost 50 fights prior in both MMA and Kickboxing.

And again it would be ridiculous to give Anderson a lot more credit for a 'defense' against Cote or Lutter while saying Izzy's wins over Anderson and Vettori, Brunson etc don't count because Anderson came in when the MW was painfully weak and thus got his title shot in his second fight, whereas Izzy faced a much deeper division and thus had to beat many other top guys first.

No way Izzy should need the same amount defenses. and saying he would need more is just fan boy crazy.