Ido talking about not training with vegans

[Jose Beehive]

Dude, you're literally doing everything that people in this thread say that they hate about some vegans

Why stop where? Wtf are you on about? We are organisms destined to evolve. We will evolve while eating meat, you will evolve not eating meat and taking pills to compensate.

Live your life dude, no one's stopping ya

By responding to you? What did I do to induce hate?

Why stop with your arbitrary number with regards to evolution and us.

Yes, what is your point?

 

[Jarvan]

This was going well until the two raging vegans turned this into a shitshow

/thread

 

[Jose Beehive]

This was going well until the two raging vegans turned this into a shitshow

/thread

You're the only one losing their shit here LOL!

 

[Iron Nick]

This was going well until the two raging vegans turned this into a shitshow

/thread

You are one of those turning it into a shitshow by behaving like a child and not responding to arguments at all, while simultaneously pointing the finger at others for their (alleged) shortcomings when it comes to argueing like reasonable and civilized people.

 

[Shocktagon]

This was going well until the two raging vegans turned this into a shitshow

/thread

Do you need a safe space?

 

[SteveColdStone]

I’m a badass because I eat meat

Spoiler

I’M A REAL MAN

 

[Iron Nick]

I mean that there is what the majority has always done in society. Then some trend starts and say 5% opts for an alternative model. The majority talks shit about the alternative and the proponents of the alternative talks shit about the majority. What I offer to you is that the 5% has a bigger burden in the discussion. We are not opposing "equals". The majority by definition is expected to be louder. So I do not accept your premises.

I don't know what that is supposed to imply, i really don't. Sorry sherbro.

And no people don't hate on vegans for wanting the world to be a better place. Please, that is cheap rethorics. Being vegan has shortcomings such as the lack of certain vitamins. So they feel a little bit antagonised when people like you go around with the loaded "making the world a better place" bit, while at the same time ignoring the shortcomings.

People hate on vegans, because people don't want to give up meat, while vegans would love for people to give up meat, for several reasons; be it the environment, the suffering of animals, or other reasons, especially when meat comes to factory farming, which as you know is where most of the meat comes from.
The lack of vitamins narrative is wrong by the way, i get all the vitamins i need as does everyone who learns a slight bit about a proper vegan diet.

The standpoint of some professional societies of nutrition (hope that's the right translation) on a vegan diet:

Spoiler

Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (USA):
"It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage. Vegetarians and vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity. Low intake of saturated fat and high intakes of vegetables, fruits, whole grains, legumes, soy products, nuts, and seeds (all rich in fiber and phytochemicals) are characteristics of vegetarian and vegan diets that produce lower total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels and better serum glucose control. These factors contribute to reduction of chronic disease. Vegans need reliable sources of vitamin B-12, such as fortified foods or supplements."

Dietitians of Canada:
"[...] Well-planned vegan and other types of vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence. [...]"

National Health and Medical Research Council of Australia (NHMRC):
"Appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthy and nutritionally adequate. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the lifecycle."

...so i'm not sure which shortcomings i'm ignoring, especially when compared to the pro's of a vegan diet, which outweigh the alleged shortcomings greatly.

You are shooting next to the target, sorry. Phones are not good and should be avoided. Yet current modern society makes it increasingly difficult to live without a phone.

Fair enough, this is up for arguments.
Maybe phones aren't a sufficient metaphor, but technical devices like computers, cars and trains have their place in the world and they are all also "unnatural".

A diet that lacks essential elements should be avoided. Current society makes it very easy for one to decide on one's diet.

So both can and should be avoided, from a purely health perspective, not sure what is your point.

A proper vegan diet does not lack essential elements as i've shown you above, so yeah.

And lastly, yes natural is inherently better. I believe in the natural and for something artificial to be better I am going to need some haaaaaard facts.

Believing in certain things is one thing, but saying "natural is inherently better" is a non sequitur.

Modern medicine is not natural but it is good for us when needed. That is beyond discussion. Antibiotics save lives and so does chirurgical interventions. Does not mean that one should take antibiotics when not sick and that one should cut himself up for fun.

I fully agree with you on that.

IDK what you are trying to achieve with that sort of logic, man, totally lacks common sense. Yet I know you as a good poster. Weird.

If you've got the impression that i'm stating any sort of BS, you can always point it out.
Personally i'd say my points are understandable, reasonable and concise.

 

[TidWell]

I don't see why some hypothetical life of living a way that doesn't correlate with what is actually happening is helpful.... If the shit hits the fan and you need to kill to survive, go for it.. But we don't, we live in a world where it is the easiest it has ever been to not eat animals.

Guarantee learning how to forage in a post apocalyptic world would be more useful than knowing how to kill animals.

Well it just means a vegan diet is not nutrient rich. You are on the diet for other things like some moral issue im guessing.

Technically speaking, it wouldn't even be possible to be vegan in a high percentage of places.

People don't really understand that you cant find domesticated fruits and vegetables in the wild.

The tomato was once a small poisonous berry. The originating genus for a large number of domesticated plants are actually inedible or have to be processed heavily in order to be consumed.

There simply isnt the edible plant matter available in order to survive, especially in the harsh climates that humanity originated in and evolved from.

So, from this we can arrive at veganism being an unnatural diet for man and sort of a new age experiment. Only really being possible In the last 100 years with the advent and evolution of refrigeration, improved domestication, storage techniques and international shipping.

From what I've seen in the last 10 years, you can do veganism and be healthy. Up to a certain level. After a few years, vital reserves of unique nutrients and fats only acquired from animals begin to deplete and they start to have issues. With a few exceptions. Some genetics seem to do well on it for longer periods of time but they're more rare.

Back when Nick was fighting, a lot of athletes believed raw veganism to be the healthiest diet. But, theres a lot more information, data and experience on the other side of the spectrum now. More and more are realizing that it simply doesnt work. Especially for athletes.

I think a large reason why Nate was so thin and thrown around like a rag doll for much of his earlier career is he was eating predominantly plants. He even said that he was basically running on empty for years. That shift in diet and perspective is partially responsible for his resurgence at the end of his career imo.

That said, it does have a purpose and veganism can be a powerful cleansing and spiritual tool. Long term though, its suspect. Vegans are some of my best friends, ironically lol.

If you eat red meat, get it grass fed / finished and eat it raw. Underrated food. People are having success with the carnivore diet for a reason.

i was on a vegan lifestyle for months and i lost so much muscle my lips were so dry and cracked and i had low b vitamin levels and iron. Many vegans who look healthy take supplements and b12 shots and steroids to help stay strong, its misleading. The vegans who dont look healthy are the true vegans, they dont take supplements or trt only eat raw vegan nothing else and many of them look like sick malnourished victims

there was a member on here who was a vegan Who said you can build muscle as a vegan, yet he took steroids lol.

 

[Satan's Daddy.]

The amount I miss meat is far exceeded by the feeling I get when knowing how many Dead Animals I didn't pay to be killed.

The opposite of depressing.

Those dead animals are already killed, doesnt matter if you pay or don't pay for a hamburger at McDonalds or a deluxe pizza elsewhere, etc. So the smell doesnt bother you from restaurants and w.e? It's your path, I respect it. Just like how I respect people being nudists, I'll never do it. I just find it fascinating of why they chose that direction in life, instead of how the majority of people are behaving

 

[Jose Beehive]

Those dead animals are already killed, doesnt matter if you pay or don't pay for a hamburger at McDonalds or a deluxe pizza elsewhere, etc. So the smell doesnt bother you from restaurants and w.e? It's your path, I respect it. Just like how I respect people being nudists, I'll never do it. I just find it fascinating of why they chose that direction in life, instead of how the majority of people are behaving

Supply and demand means that me not choosing to buy animals, has a very very very tiny dint in the profits of those who killed animals. And that dint makes me happy. If everyone stopped buying animal products, animal products wouldn't exist.

What the smell of meat? It's yet to bother me, Melted Cheese Christmas adverts are pretty hard to watch without salivating, but It takes about a second to out think it.

 

[Iron Nick]

i was on a vegan lifestyle for months and i lost so much muscle my lips were so dry and cracked and i had low b vitamin levels and iron. Many vegans who look healthy take supplements and b12 shots and steroids to help stay strong, its misleading. The vegans who dont look healthy are the true vegans, they dont take supplements or trt only eat raw vegan nothing else and many of them look like sick malnourished victims

If someone who takes a B12 pill isn't a "true vegan" than anyone who's omnivours and drinks a protein shake isn't a "true omnivorous person" either.
That being said, this line of reasoning of yours doesn't really make sense, sorry.

Personally i've been vegan for years and i'm fine.
I also did a marathon in june with lots of elevation and without specific training, meaning that i did run frequently, but usually distances between 5-10 kilometres (3.1-6.2 miles, whereas a marathon is 42.2 kilometres (26.2 miles).

 

[Jose Beehive]

Well it just means a vegan diet is not nutrient rich. You are on the diet for other things like some moral issue im guessing.

It is Nutrient rich in every facet other than B12, which mostly Meat Eaters struggle with too... I don't even consider it a diet, I consider it a philosophy, Plant Based Eaters are not necessarily Vegan, If I had to list my order of preference it would be as follows, though I deem all very important things to consider.
1. Animals
2. Planet
3. Myself

 

[TidWell]

If someone who takes a B12 pill isn't a "true vegan" than anyone who's omnivours and drinks a protein shake isn't a "true omnivorous person" either.
That being said, this line of reasoning of yours doesn't really make sense, sorry.

Personally i've been vegan for years and i'm fine.
I also did a marathon in june with lots of elevation and without specific training, meaning that i did run frequently, but usually distances between 5-10 kilometres (3.1-6.2 miles, whereas a marathon is 42.2 kilometres (26.2 miles).

Why do vegans always do this? Mention people taking fortified foods and supps, what i say is can you survive off vegan diet in the wild without supplements? No you cant but you can survive off an omnivore diet. So if a diet is sufficient it would mean you can get your nutrients from it without supplementation. No need with the whataboutisim

so you are a true vegan no testosterone, no supplements, no oil supps, Or processed fortified foods? I hung around some real deal raw vegans no processed foods everything self made no supplements and they all looked like shit skinny and i looked skinny and was cold and had bad dry skin and lips.

 

[Iron Nick]

Why do vegans always do this? Mention people taking fortified foods and supps, what i say is can you survive off vegan diet in the wild without supplements? No you cant but you can survive off an omnivore diet. So if a diet is sufficient it would mean you can get your nutrients from it without supplementation. No need with the whataboutisim

so you are a true vegan no testosterone, no supplements, no oil supps, Or processed fortified foods? I hung around some real deal raw vegans no processed foods everything self made no supplements and they all looked like shit skinny and i looked skinny and was cold and had bad dry skin and lips.

I probably could survive on a vegan diet in the wild, though it would be more difficult than on an omnivorous diet, at least in colder climates.
That being said, this argument is a whataboutism, since you're talking about a fictional situation, not the very issue we're discussing right now.
Either way, there's no reason for me to eat like i've been stranded on an isle.

Again, even if i *did* take these things, i could be true vegan, but that being said, the only supplement i take due to being a vegan is B12. No testosterone (lol) and no oil supps.
I eat a lot of tofu, but that's just as fortified (or not fortified) as the meat you can buy is, but even that is something that i wouldn't need to take to meet nutritional requirements.

 

[RichyN]

Chimps eat meat, and are also cannibals.

Its not a main source of their diet. Look at the chimps in zoos, they are definitely not eating each other or meat and are still jacked. Also, Gorillas which you totally disregarded are vegetarian and they are even more jacked and bigger than chimps.

Regardless, the point I was making is you do not need to eat meat to be strong/muscular. You can be vegan and still be jacked. It is mainly your genetics.

 

[trimmin]

Eating a vegan diet is literally the best thing you can do for the environment and thus, all other people sharing the planet with you and that includes yourself as well.
Even if in fact "most vegans" would still use other animal products, it's still better than additionally also consuming animal products.
By the way: personally attacking people is usually what those resort to, who have no arguments (those personal attacks are called argumentum ad hominem) - and your post bursts of these attacks.
It requires far, far more resources and is many times worse for the planet to consume animal products than vegan products, so you saying the problem is just replaced is absolute nonsense.

This argument again...

No, there's nothing that suggests that plants are conscious and feel pain at all and even if they did, consuming animal products inevitably requires many times the amount of plants that a vegan diet does, because the farm animals need to be fed as well.

Oh, another personal attack!
Fun fact: out of all people in this thread, you and a few other "anti-vegan" people are by far the most condescending ones, whereas i and @Jose Beehive are pretty chill, no?

As for "turning a blind eye to other areas besides the eating of animals" i'm vegan for the animals, the environment and my longterm health.
I haven't bout a new smartphone in years and only use used ones for years.
I don't order sh*t from amazon, i look where (and how) my clothes are made, the very few times i buy them and politically i'm also always voting for parties which care about the environment and people, so i must disappoint you, i must be one of those vegans who isn't a hypocrite and full of shit.

Cheers mate.

The same land the animals live on needs to be converted to agriculture in order to grow enough veg to support a population. Humans are bad for the environment by default. There’s no sense in posturing over a diet. The pesticides used nowadays are amazing as well I hear. Great for the environment.

 

[Iron Nick]

Here we go man, i'll respond to each of these as good as i can.

Its fine that you eat plants, but evolutionary wise, we were made to eat meat & plants & some mushrooms. Hence canine teeth, and other certain organs.

Saying "we were made to" is a natural fallacy and implies that we were intended to eat meat (amongst other things) when in reality, it just happened to be that way out of necessity and/or ignorance (our ancestors couldn't just magically come up with how to plant beets, agriculture, etc. out of nowhere).

And yes, you're suppose to be able to get your nutritional needs through diet, hence why more people prefer eating both, rather than just veganism or just carnivore. If you need supplements for your diet, it's not good. There is a reason why we have nutritional value information on food, so we can best prepare our diet.

It doesn't matter if i get B12 through a pill or not. This is a non sequitur and has been brought up several times, though it's not really an argument at all, sorry.
You're also wrong about a vegan diet not being good; here are the opinions of some professional societies of nutrition on a vegan diet:

Spoiler

Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (USA):
"It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes. Plant-based diets are more environmentally sustainable than diets rich in animal products because they use fewer natural resources and are associated with much less environmental damage. Vegetarians and vegans are at reduced risk of certain health conditions, including ischemic heart disease, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, certain types of cancer, and obesity. Low intake of saturated fat and high intakes of vegetables, fruits, whole grains, legumes, soy products, nuts, and seeds (all rich in fiber and phytochemicals) are characteristics of vegetarian and vegan diets that produce lower total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels and better serum glucose control. These factors contribute to reduction of chronic disease. Vegans need reliable sources of vitamin B-12, such as fortified foods or supplements."

Dietitians of Canada:
"[...] Well-planned vegan and other types of vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence. [...]"

National Health and Medical Research Council of Australia (NHMRC):
"Appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthy and nutritionally adequate. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the lifecycle."

Also lol at holding a moral high ground, no meat eater is defending corporate meat industry practices, or saying that is how they want their meat processed, in fact most would prefer free range and "non cruelty killed" methods, but usually that makes products more expensive, and harder to make the meat industry assembly line esque processing.

I don't know who said something about holding the moral ground, but even if that's just what you felt i and/or other vegans in this thread meant to imply, i'll answer you on that.
Being a vegan doesn't make me or anyone else worth more as a person than a regular diet would, but it's hard to deny that a vegan cares more about morals and is more consistent with them, than a lot, probably even most meat eaters are.
That might sound condescending, but hear me out:
Veganism is many times better for the animals, our climate/environment and thus inevitably also for all human beings around the world and by following a vegan diet, you're having a positive impact on all these things, which even from an egoistical standpoint (which i don't assume you'll take though) will be in your interest.

Its just there is honestly nothing much people can do to change said practices, but if the meat is already there ready to be eaten, there is absolutely zero reason for it to be wasted.

Wrong again, deciding to follow a vegan diet or even only eat (way less) animal products (talking about the average person here) and if you eat them, decide to eat meat from a hunter, would be the end of all factory farming.
The point that it shouldn't be wasted is (nothing else considered) viable, but since supply and demand (or in this case: demand and supply) is a thing, buying these products would subsequently and always lead to a continuation in their production (and hence all the negative things they're causing).

These faux moral high ground straw man arguments are dumb imo, because if you want to get technical, science has studies showing that, yes, certain plants do "react" to "pain"(at least being eaten/cut) by releasing certain chemical reaction/smells to call for predators(usually birds to eat the insects the plant assumes is doing the damage).
Also, there is evidence that certain plants are able to communicate with each other through roots systems, like when certain plants have a seed of their kind sprout close enough to them, they will absorb nutrition from surrounding areas and help the seedling/sapling plant into maturity.

If we really want to get technical, then no, there's not even the slighest scientific evidence, let alone consensus about plants being conscious which obviously is the requirement to feel anything at all.
(Plants haven't got a central nervous system, nor a brain)

But let's assume that - for whatever reason - plants were not just conscious, but just as conscious as animals and also us, alright?

Even then, a vegan diet would be the choice that:

• ...involves the least suffering, since far more plants are killed to feed farm animals that are supposed to feed us than if we were to use the same farmland to directly feed us.
• ...has the far smaller ecological footprint.
• ...decreases the emergence of zoonoses (and thus pandemics) significantly.

Also certain nut trees that go through cycles where every certain # of years they explode with seeds for a year, more than all of the squirrels can feed on, and have are more likely to have multiple nuts get forgotten/lost from winter storage of the squirrel and therefore are able to sprout. While then the next few years they only produce their normal amount of nuts instead of an explosion of them. ( I have personally witnessed this in GA with pecan trees).
^^ this is also helped seen with the explosion of nuts, next year(peacans go back to normal amount) an explosion of squirrel because they had more free time because previous year food was abundant, next year(pecans still normal amount) an explosion of predators who consumed the squirrel for same reason, then finally again the pecan tree explodes in nuts again, because the squirrel population is low, allowing for more tree offspring. Then rinse repeat, as squirrel bounce back with nut over abundance again, same with predators because squirrel over abundance, then tree produce more as squirrel population is low this year ect.
Now I know that LONG rant is somewhat random, but it IS documented, now the question comes back to what is the definition of intelligence, and is the tree showing intelligence by knowing the squirrel population is low, and therefore knowing to over produce pecans?

I'm no neuroscientist, but i'm not aware that phenomen's like these imply trees having a consciousness and even if they did, i made a point about that above, explaining why a vegan diet would still be the better choice.

Also, to help @Eszopiclone with the discussion about the ethics thing, his argument is the fact you cannot have ethics without an observer(entity). (Whether this entity is able to be acknowledged with your senses or not, if it exist in this universe in any capacity, for his case ANY observer is the entity)

That's also not true at all, so i'm not sure how that is supposed to be the case - this sounds like something a religious person would say in order to sh*t on non-religious people's beliefs, or lack thereof.

If plants are innocent, than how do you feel about insect eating plants? I.e. Venus Flytrap. I mean if a plant can choose to "murder" an innocent insect to survive, what is the problem with humans doing the same in order to survive, especially as we are evolutionarily built for both?

That's a natural fallacy again.
Using this "logic" i could just as well argue that there's nothing wrong with killing someone's offspring and eating them in order to survive, but even if we leave aside that it's wrong to kill someone's babies, that's a very bad idea for several reasons.

Animals are ate by others all the time, even animals we thought we strictly herbivore have been documented with eating meat in rare occasions.

...and like the other examples, this doesn't imply that we or animals are "meant" to be that way.
This is always brought up with statements like "lions eat meat too, why shouldn't i?" but for some reason, the people who state these things become very silent when being taught about animals raping each other or even killing for fun - and they rightfully become silent, because not only is there a reason to project some kind of morality and ethics on animal behaviour, but also because those people realize how inconsistent they are with their poor line of reasoning.

Some animals have been domesticated by humans for so long, or are non-indigenous that If left to roam, they would be slaughtered just the same by predators because they either lost their defense, or their defense doesn't work in their geographic location. So what difference does it make for a human to eat it instead that will more likely make it's death swift, versus left in the wild, where very likely being eaten alive, before succumbing to death?(if you have seen any nature documentary or webpages showing nature, more often than not animals begin to eat immediately before their prey has died complete)

That's why we shouldn't just leave domesticated animals in the wild, but if said animal has no chance of survival, than it can indeed be the case that we're sparing this animal suffering by killing it, but in the framework of this discussion, this scenario is as meaningless as the "what if you were stranded on an island with no humans and agriculture to feed you?".

And last, would you vegans feel bad about eating the meat of a cow/chicken/animal that died of happy old age? If so, why? When the majority of vegan arguments are the treatment of animals before consumption.

I can't speak for others, but if that animal wasn't being raised for this sole purpose (which would imply waste of resources if done on a somewhat greater scale and also a relationship towards this animals by those who've raised it that i'd consider wrong) i wouldn't be morally opposed to it, although i'd probably still not eat it for health reasons.

Hope that helps man, cheers.

@Yep here's the post you wanted to see.

 

[Iron Nick]

The same land the animals live on needs to be converted to agriculture in order to grow enough veg to support a population. Humans are bad for the environment by default.

No, that's not the case.
We'd need a fraction of the farmland that we now use worldwide if the human population was vegan.

There’s no sense in posturing over a diet. The pesticides used nowadays are amazing as well I hear.

Not sure where i'm posturing, i'm just stating facts.
The pros of a vegan diet when it comes to its requirements in terms of land needed, disease prevention and health greatly outweigh those of a diet which includes animal products.
We also need less pesticides overall the more people are going vegan and aside from that, plants are also not full of antibiotics (like meat from factory farms) of micro plastic particles (like fish from the oceans).
Nice try though.

Great for the environment.

Veganism is, unironically, indeed great for the environment.

 

[Yep]

No, that's not the case.
We'd need a fraction of the farmland that we now use worldwide if the human population was vegan.

Not sure where i'm posturing, i'm just stating facts.
The pros of a vegan diet when it comes to its requirements in terms of land needed, disease prevention and health greatly outweigh those of a diet which includes animal products.
We also need less pesticides overall the more people are going vegan and aside from that, plants are also not full of antibiotics (like meat from factory farms) of micro plastic particles (like fish from the oceans).
Nice try though.

Veganism is, unironically, indeed great for the environment.

How does more agriculture mean less pesticides? And ultimately you would still need animals for fertilizer, no?

 

[Koro_11]

Touch butt dork in the park?