Identify/evaluate my newbish stance...

[DXMacIntyre]

Hi.

I guess it's kinda presumptuous to have my first post be a thread, but I had a specific question I've been trying to answer so I guess I'll just ask.

I started sparring (let's just say it's MMA, for simplicity's sake) about a month ago, and I've noticed that I tend to favor this rather unusual stance. My trainer/instructor never corrects me during sparring, but I'm wondering a) whether it's effective and b) what it is, exactly. See, four years prior, I spent a year studying an American composite style (head instructor combined a bunch of styles, almost at random..."McDojo" is on the tip of my tongue, though I'd hate to admit it) and this stance I favor was one of the first one's I learned. It goes like so:

Body is perpendicular to your opponent's, assuming opponent is just standing normally. Knees bent, forward heel is lifted, angled slightly toward the opponent. Hands are supposed to be up near the chin, though I favor tucking the forward elbow into the ribs, leaving the forward forearm parallel to the floor and the opponent. Back arm goes across the chest to cover the chin.

I have little faith in my boxing technique, so I tend to favor kicks (and sidekicks, at that! Odd, given what I've read about sidekicks around here). I find that the raised foot reduces the response time for both side and roundhouse kicks, and even use it as a transitional stance when throwing kicks from the more "traditional," squarish MMA stance I'm being taught currently. Moreover, while the hand placement seems odd, it's easy to maintain throughout the entire kick.

Is it worthwhile to keep this in my arsenal? Or am I maintaining a bad habit? Have I subconsciously been watching too many kung fu movies (the joke here is that I don't watch any, see...)? Does this stance sound familiar to anyone?

Thanks for any help!

 

[rghtcrs4u]

in mma never keep your body perpendicular to your opponents.. especially if your opponent is a grappler... you're basically giving your opponent a takedown

 

[dickfloss]

Body is perpendicular to your opponent's, assuming opponent is just standing normally. Knees bent, forward heel is lifted, angled slightly toward the opponent. Hands are supposed to be up near the chin, though I favor tucking the forward elbow into the ribs, leaving the forward forearm parallel to the floor and the opponent. Back arm goes across the chest to cover the chin.

I have little faith in my boxing technique, so I tend to favor kicks (and sidekicks, at that! Odd, given what I've read about sidekicks around here). I find that the raised foot reduces the response time for both side and roundhouse kicks, and even use it as a transitional stance when throwing kicks from the more "traditional," squarish MMA stance I'm being taught currently. Moreover, while the hand placement seems odd, it's easy to maintain throughout the entire kick.

wtf you just described ryu

 

[DXMacIntyre]

eh....yeah, it's kinda like that...though the actual stance is a bit wider...:redface: I'm tempted to say it's shotokan, but the reason your mentioned is the only thing I'd have to call it that. I was never told what it was called.

Since I'm starting out, my focus is on standup and I haven't had to worry about being open for takedowns just yet....though I guess I'll have to take that into consideration eventually.

 

[Azy]

I am not quite understanding the stance but that said it sounds like a cross between shotokan and gung fu. It seems to work for you with the strikes but if you are training MMA then it is probably bad. i say this as the stance is not stable. With the raised foot you will be more off balance and more suseptable to take downs and trips. If you are not doing grappling then it should work out. Without actually "seeing" it I can't help much further.

 

[Azy]

It also sounds like the stance Sagat uses in Street Fighter 2

 

[IkkussSpikkuss]

Maybe I missunderstood (you really should include a pic), but it sounds like old old old school boxing with a "sugar-foot" twist.

Its a terrible stance for MMA. Good luck throwing any good kick without letting your opponent know you are going to throw it way in advance.

If you "sugar-foot" (drop the lead arm and hide behind your shoulder/back) I will just kick you repeatedly. If it gets thorugh to your head great, if you keep blocking it with your shoulder/back/forearm, great. It'll hurt you, not me.

Or I can just kick you in the lead leg. Since you are perpendicular I will just crush the back of your leg. You wont make it out of the first round.

You're open to elbows man. Jab, Jab, step in to smother your counter while slipping to the side with my head, over the top elbow. You cant hide behind the shoulder/back because its comming with a downward angle. I'm not talking about the jumping downward elbow to the top of the head (which would also work) I'm just talking about the boring old Muay Thai 101 angled elbow. You're cut, I eventually win.

Easy takedown. The further you put the front foot foreward the easier it is for a wrestler to grab it.

I think you need to go train with a Muay Thai instructor and a wrestling coach and a BJJ coach. Then mesh whet they teach you together into what works for you. All three will tell you to stop standing that way.

 

[NinjaKilla187]

Junk it.

It probably did you okay for point type fighting in a light contact TMA dojo. That raised front heel gets off lots of snapping little tag kicks but no real power and you were likely fighting guys with limited hand skills so your goofy hand position didn't get you mauled. If you favor the side kick your back leg is almost always out of position to throw power shots unless you can do the no-telegraph shuffle. Even then the side kick tends to be difficult to do damage with. It is inherently a pushing type kick and dosen't get a lot of power.

If Cung Lee ever fights anybody good and wins he may show us a side kick that can work in MMA but for most guys it isn't a high percentage technique.

I'd be willing to bet at whatever gym you learned this they didn't ever do full or hard contact head punching in sparring... That tends to correct hand positioning real quick.

 

[IkkussSpikkuss]

Junk it.

It probably did you okay for point type fighting in a light contact TMA dojo. That raised front heel gets off lots of snapping little tag kicks but no real power and you were likely fighting guys with limited hand skills so your goofy hand position didn't get you mauled. If you favor the side kick your back leg is almost always out of position to throw power shots unless you can do the no-telegraph shuffle. Even then the side kick tends to be difficult to do damage with. It is inherently a pushing type kick and dosen't get a lot of power.

If Cung Lee ever fights anybody good and wins he may show us a side kick that can work in MMA but for most guys it isn't a high percentage technique.

I'd be willing to bet at whatever gym you learned this they didn't ever do full or hard contact head punching in sparring... That tends to correct hand positioning real quick.

I agree with some of what you said, but not all of it. I myself have a raised front heel most of the time (unless I'm fighting a wrestler with no kicking ability). It helps me check kicks and I bounce it as a kick faint over and over again. But if you do it too much against a guy who has good takedowns your weight is too high and your sprawl goes to shat.

The side kick is not that great of a kick for MMA, I agree. But it can be used. Even I have landed one or two. But the spinning side kick (still a side kick) can be a great weapon! I can't use it because I'm not fast enough and don't have a karate/TKD background. But lots of guys use it. The Crow and GSP come to mind.

 

[IkkussSpikkuss]

Moreover, while the hand placement seems odd, it's easy to maintain throughout the entire kick.

Why would you want to keep your upper body the same way all the way through a kick??? The first two things I learned in Muay Thai is opening/driving the hips and counter swinging the upper body/arms. Neither of which you can really do in the stance you described. Its too complicated to explain...well, no it isn't, but I am too lazy to explain it. Go find yourself a Muay Thai coach and tell him what I said and he'll show you.

My opinion:

Muay Thai + Western Boxing + a select few karate/TKD kicks (Mantis, Side, Axe...) = Great MMA striking

 

[NinjaKilla187]

I agree with some of what you said, but not all of it. I myself have a raised front heel most of the time (unless I'm fighting a wrestler with no kicking ability). It helps me check kicks and I bounce it as a kick faint over and over again. But if you do it too much against a guy who has good takedowns your weight is too high and your sprawl goes to shat.

The side kick is not that great of a kick for MMA, I agree. But it can be used. Even I have landed one or two. But the spinning side kick (still a side kick) can be a great weapon! I can't use it because I'm not fast enough and don't have a karate/TKD background. But lots of guys use it. The Crow and GSP come to mind.

Raised front heel is a very defensive stance for MMA. I agree it makes checking low kicks easier but what works even better is to be landing your own power leg kicks, which you will not be doing with a raised heel on front foot.

The spinning kicks can definitely work. I have used the spinning side kick for many years but have been playing with the no-look back kick Kryllo demoed on here a while back and am getting better power with it.

 

[IkkussSpikkuss]

Raised front heel is a very defensive stance for MMA. I agree it makes checking low kicks easier but what works even better is to be landing your own power leg kicks, which you will not be doing with a raised heel on front foot.

The spinning kicks can definitely work. I have used the spinning side kick for many years but have been playing with the no-look back kick Kryllo demoed on here a while back and am getting better power with it.

I think traditional Muay Thai would dissagree with you about the raised leg negatively effecting your power leg kick. I find (and have been taught by several Kru's in the past) that it helps because you can more quickly open your hips and drop your weight back on the leg to drive the back leg into your' opponent. Its hard to explain, but if you've trained Muay Thai I'm sure you've at least heard about it even if you dissagree.

That is what is great about MMA. What works for me doesn't automatically work for you. The raised heel works for me. I'm not saying you should raise your heel. I do, and most of my Kru's in the past agree. Even a lot of the Dutch strikers I have trained with do the same thing. But I do admit that its risky in MMA against a guy who will take you down. Absolutely no dissrespect meant bro. You obviously train and know what you're talking about. Its simply a difference in professional opinions.

 

[NinjaKilla187]

I think traditional Muay Thai would dissagree with you about the raised leg negatively effecting your power leg kick. I find (and have been taught by several Kru's in the past) that it helps because you can more quickly open your hips and drop your weight back on the leg to drive the back leg into your' opponent. Its hard to explain, but if you've trained Muay Thai I'm sure you've at least heard about it even if you dissagree.

I'm trying to give the guy advice on a stance that will work with what he is studying and it doesn't sound like he is studying MT.

In MT the heel-up front leg stance works due to use of the slide/shuffle or otherwise repositioning the feet prior to every kick. Your not really ever actually launching kicks from the stance, its more of an integrated system of footwork and tactical movement.

 

[IkkussSpikkuss]

I'm trying to give the guy advice on a stance that will work with what he is studying and it doesn't sound like he is studying MT.

In MT the heel-up front leg stance works due to use of the slide/shuffle or otherwise repositioning the feet prior to every kick. Your not really ever actually launching kicks from the stance, its more of an integrated system of footwork and tactical movement.

Agreed. And you're right, it sounds like he's not studying MT...but he should be.

 

[DXMacIntyre]

Heh... interesting. First of all, thanks for not flaming me, and keeping the "my kung fu is stronger" remarks to a minimum. Second of all, my previous background involved point sparring, which might explain my preference for quick little snapkicks and the like.

As I mentioned, it's mostly a transitional stance that I drop into when coming down from a kick (seems to reduce recovery time). If I start out that way, it's for purely offensive purposes; I drop into the more traditional, squarish stance for defense. Speaking of defense, I was taught (and am currently being taught) to maintain defense throughout an entire technique, which seems to sacrifice the extra momentum/leverage offered by what seems to be a proper MT kick (wouldn't actually know, as I haven't the opportunity to study it). Hence that.

On top of improving my conditioning and phasing out my flinch reflex (both things I'm reading up on 'round here), I wonder: is it worth keeping for certain situations, or should I phase it out entirely?

 

[djchen011032]

sounds like Ryu from street fighter.

problem with the side stance with raised heel is... any singular angled kick will require you to change foot position by twisting, ie front kick, round kick. lead leg side kick will require you to shuffle, altough i can see a spinning back kick is the best option with the placement of your feet in the side stance, they are in the right position to start with hahaha. Though i cant get into detail without a visual.

the hand placement hints at a hitman style from boxing but you keep it tight to your body right?

we need a visual! ^_^