IBJJF 5 person division

[Ninjamurf]

Last comp I went in was like this (only showing 6 guys not the full 26).

Round 1.
F1 Bye

F2
Vs
F3

F4
Vs
F5

F6 bye.


Round 2

F1
Vs
Winner fo F2 and F3

Winner of F4 and F5
Vs
F6.


Its not like this cost of me anything results wise I just think it would be a fairer system if the fighters with Byes had to face each other ie have to face a fresh opponent instead of guys who have already fought.

(yes I know they aren't really fights it was just easier to say it that way)

This is the way it HAS to be. Your first example is worse because basically you have four fighters in the top half of the bracket, the other two with the bottom half all to themselves. You "drew it up" right in this example but it might be better understood if you had the actual seeds correct. It should look like this...

Round 1.
F1 vs F8 (no F8!) Bye

F5 Vs F4
----------------------|
F3 Vs F6

F2 vs F7 (no F7!) bye

Now, here's what I'm talking about with the beauty of the math. "Add up" the seeds for those matches. They are all equal to 9. But it's not just 9. It's B+1 where B=the size of the bracket. This works for ALL 'normal' brackets. A 16 person bracket? Add the seeds for each first round match up and they should all equal 17. But to be honest it's not just (B+1). It's actually ST=[B/2^(r-1)]+1 (Stick with me here) where ST is the seed total, B is the initial size of the bracket, and r is the round. So...16 person bracket, B=16...first round, r=1...

ST=[16/2^(1-1)]+1 1-1=0 and anything to the "zero" power equals 1
ST=[16/1]+1
ST=17 for first round matches

Round 2
ST=[16/2^(2-1)]+1 2-1=1 and anything to the power of 1 equals itself
ST=[16/2]+1
ST=9 for second round matches

Round 3
ST=[16/2^(3-1)]+1
ST=[16/4]+1
ST=5 for third round matches

Round 4 (Finals)
ST=[16/2^(4-1)]+1
ST=[16/8]+1
ST=3 for third round matches

I must also note that this is advancing the highest seed in each match, but even if the 16 beats the 1 you just advance them as the new 1. This is more for seeing how the brackets "make sense" than how an actual brackets develops in "real life". If you understand the mechanism behind how the are created and are supposed to work, you can figure out a bracket of any size!

Another neat number, the total number of matches (for single elimination bracket) is N-1 where N equals the number of competitors. Now this one works REGARDLESS of how many competitor are in the bracket. 14 competitors...13 matches. 16 competitors...15 matches. 7 competitors...6 matches.

Man, there's more, but I gots to go!

 

[HIMBOB]

Round 1.
F1 vs F8 (no F8!) Bye

F5 Vs F4
----------------------|
F3 Vs F6

F2 vs F7 (no F7!) bye

I think I get it.

BUT I am fairly confident this was totally unranked, I say that because it was my first comp and the guy who beat me had a bye first round and it was his first comp too.

So I ask is the below not the same effect as yours (assuming not actually seeded), but has the advantage of the two guys with bye fighting each other.

F1 vs F8 (no F8!) Bye

F2 vs F7 (no F7!) bye
----------------------|
F5 Vs F4

F3 Vs F6

In a ranked tournament I can see why you would not want the above as 1 plays 2 very early, but in an unseeded comp it makes more sence.


But in short you have answered my question, why do they not have the two bye guys facing each other, answer because they used a seeded style of match making despite not actually seeding the competitors.

It all makes sense to me know and I am happy, I hate things which don't make any sense.

Thanks.

 

[Ninjamurf]

I think I get it.

BUT I am fairly confident this was totally unranked, I say that because it was my first comp and the guy who beat me had a bye first round and it was his first comp too.

So I ask is the below not the same effect as yours (assuming not actually seeded), but has the advantage of the two guys with bye fighting each other.

F1 vs F8 (no F8!) Bye

F2 vs F7 (no F7!) bye
----------------------|
F5 Vs F4

F3 Vs F6

In a ranked tournament I can see why you would not want the above as 1 plays 2 very early, but in an unseeded comp it makes more sence.


But in short you have answered my question, why do they not have the two bye guys facing each other, answer because they used a seeded style of match making despite not actually seeding the competitors.

It all makes sense to me know and I am happy, I hate things which don't make any sense.

Thanks.

You don't have to think of it as "seeds", you can think of it as the first guy that signs up gets #1, the second guy gets #2, and so on. They don't have to actually be "ranked" or anything. Hell, pick the names out of a hat, but the first name you pick goes into the 1 slot, second guy into the 2 at the opposite end of the bracket, and so on. Again, the problem with your scenario is that you have 2 guys that basically fight one fight to get into the final while ALL the other fighters have to fight twice to get there. You are still vexed with the other fighter being "more tired" by the extra fight. But in your scenario one fighter is GUARANTEED to enter the final on only one fight while his opponent will ABSOLUTELY have already fought twice. You throw the byes onto opposite ends of the bracket (in this 6 man case) and you might have both fighters in the final with 1 fight each...OR you may have BOTH fighters in the final with 2 fights each...OR a blend. In your scenario one fighter in the final will have fought once, the other twice, in EVERY instance.

This may not seem that bad in this particular scenario but let's expand it. Go to a 16 person bracket with 10 guys. The way you have a drawn up, you've got a full "half" of the bracket, and a bracket with the "extra" guys. But in this instance, if you do it with a 16 man bracket and only 10 guys...2 people fight in the lower half to reach the final...while 8 guys fight it out in the top half. Does that make it any clearer as to why to spread the byes out equally between the brackets?

 

[gdubs]

This is the way it HAS to be. Your first example is worse because basically you have four fighters in the top half of the bracket, the other two with the bottom half all to themselves. You "drew it up" right in this example but it might be better understood if you had the actual seeds correct. It should look like this...

Round 1.
F1 vs F8 (no F8!) Bye

F5 Vs F4
----------------------|
F3 Vs F6

F2 vs F7 (no F7!) bye

Now, here's what I'm talking about with the beauty of the math. "Add up" the seeds for those matches. They are all equal to 9. But it's not just 9. It's B+1 where B=the size of the bracket. This works for ALL 'normal' brackets. A 16 person bracket? Add the seeds for each first round match up and they should all equal 17. But to be honest it's not just (B+1). It's actually ST=[B/2^(r-1)]+1 (Stick with me here) where ST is the seed total, B is the initial size of the bracket, and r is the round. So...16 person bracket, B=16...first round, r=1...

ST=[16/2^(1-1)]+1 1-1=0 and anything to the "zero" power equals 1
ST=[16/1]+1
ST=17 for first round matches

Round 2
ST=[16/2^(2-1)]+1 2-1=1 and anything to the power of 1 equals itself
ST=[16/2]+1
ST=9 for second round matches

Round 3
ST=[16/2^(3-1)]+1
ST=[16/4]+1
ST=5 for third round matches

Round 4 (Finals)
ST=[16/2^(4-1)]+1
ST=[16/8]+1
ST=3 for third round matches

I must also note that this is advancing the highest seed in each match, but even if the 16 beats the 1 you just advance them as the new 1. This is more for seeing how the brackets "make sense" than how an actual brackets develops in "real life". If you understand the mechanism behind how the are created and are supposed to work, you can figure out a bracket of any size!

Another neat number, the total number of matches (for single elimination bracket) is N-1 where N equals the number of competitors. Now this one works REGARDLESS of how many competitor are in the bracket. 14 competitors...13 matches. 16 competitors...15 matches. 7 competitors...6 matches.

Man, there's more, but I gots to go!

Interesting, I might ask you for some advice on this.. I figured out the single elimination, but not the round robin type. haha. was wondering though, how many tournaments uses this type of format??

 

[Ninjamurf]

Interesting, I might ask you for some advice on this.. I figured out the single elimination, but not the round robin type. haha. was wondering though, how many tournaments uses this type of format??

What type of format? Round robin? Or single elimination brackets?

Round robin:
Almost every pro soccer league on the planet. In fact, most use a double round robin format, but we usually just call that "the season."
Youth soccer tournaments do it a lot.
All kinds of leagues and what not.

Single Elimination Brackets:
BJJ tournaments
Wrestling tournaments
NCAA Basketball (March Madness)
Every major tennis tournament

There are even some combos:
Champions League uses a round robin to determine the qualifiers for a modified bracket system to determine the winner.
The soccer World Cup uses a round robin to fill in a single elimination bracket

Many, many, many more examples of all of those, I'm just spit ballin' here.