I don't think it's fair to use PED's as metric to rule out GOAT candidacy.

[Mysterio]

USADA should get their walking papers and we should go back to Pride style non testing. Everyone is on a level playing fiield, we don't have to miss out on great fights, nobody gets banned, less injuries, legends last well beyond their years, we see everyone at their optimum and we can have proper GOAT discussions without people trying to play the steroid card. All problems solved. This is the fight game not Olympic figure skating.

 

[chinarice]

I honestly think it's silly to discuss GOAT of MMA.

It all depends on the criteria you use and in most cases, your bias towards your favourite fighter of the bunch will come into play.

Jones, GSP, Aldo, Silva, Fedor and MM are, to me, the greatest of all time relative to their weight classes and I think things like that are easier to argue.

I think BW and LW are detable.

 

[TheAmericanGazelle]

In most sports, intelligent analysts compare fighters against their peers when evaluating legacies.

That's why Babe Ruth is considered the GOAT baseball player, even though he probably wouldn't even make a team today time-machined to 2018.

Similarly, the issue for me is cheating, not PED use per se. So if a fighter pops for PEDs while at least some of his peers are fighting clean, and it's cheating...that's a black mark. If PEDs are allowed like in Pride, then that variable is (essentially) a constant anyway across peers.

 

[William Huggins]

Even if more fighters is using post usada the program might still be a success. Ever tought about that?

If more fighters are using PEDs it's not a success.........

It's irrelevant really, USADA will always be playing catch up and they are not actually stopping PED's just encouraging chemists to create new designer PED's that are more and more harder to test for, it's like an arms race.

The problem with this arms race is, instead of fighters using a PED's with a history of knowledge behind and data on the long term effects, they are becoming guinea pigs for new untested PED's just to gain an edge......... because ultimately their income is tied to their performance........

Fighters should not just be taking PED's they should be taking drugs to protect them from the long term effects of being a fighter, they should be allowed to take PED's that we know the long term effects of.

 

[Dirge]

Sure, as long as we're clear about our criteria up front there's nothing wrong with that.

I happen to agree

While I do not endorse the use of peds, the reality is that most fighters either used them or still do.

If we apply failed drug tests to the criteria for who qualifies as the best fighter, does that really address all those who were never caught.

Take Frank shamrock for example. Great fighter, and one of the guys that helped put the UFC on the map and mma in general

I doubt if anyone knows if he used peds although it's quite possible. So is his legacy thrown out because be probably used but didn't get caught ?

I've been rethinking the controversy behind fighters like Jones and Silva. Does it really matter that they got dinged for peds use when ,most of the guys they fought simply haven't been caught?

And if that's the case it pretty much invalidates eliminating them from goat conversations

 

[808nEffect]

For one, anything pre USADA is a completely different standard of testing than what we have now, and those of us in the wise know that are still probably a lot of people getting away with it now.

Post USADA UFC testing was an absolute joke. TRT juicing was actually legal for a long period of time as well.

Pride encouraged PED's ffs.

How are we going to compare a bunch of different era's with different testing standards and just disqualify those getting popped by USADA now?

I let ring accomplishments speak for themselves and Jones/Fedor/GSP/Anderson are all frontrunners. Testing be damned.

Pride encouraged PEDs because they didn't want to pay for drug testing. Their boss straight up said that Pride couldn't afford the drug testing fees. He said it would cost them over 5K per fighter(probably more than that). The UFC is a whole different animal. I have a friend here in Japan, who worked as a translator for some fighters who competed in Pride/ MMA events. He said they would straight up ask for PEDs before fights... lol

 

[91 seconds]

It's all between..
Fedor
Gsp
Silva
Jones

And maybe Aldo and DC should be on that list too but it's basically those first 4, just pick one. It's Fedor without question for me but I was 19 or 20 when he started so I watched his entire career unfold. Nobody had the aura of prime Fedor. Not Jones, not Silva, not Gsp.

 

[FrodoFraggins]

It's less fair to compare known juicer JJ with likely nonjuicer DC. JJ disqualified himself by taking the illegal shortcut, it is what it is.

 

[HHJ]

USADA should get their walking papers and we should go back to Pride style non testing. Everyone is on a level playing fiield, we don't have to miss out on great fights, nobody gets banned, less injuries, legends last well beyond their years, we see everyone at their optimum and we can have proper GOAT discussions without people trying to play the steroid card. All problems solved. This is the fight game not Olympic figure skating.

Its too late.
Usada is in,they cant back out now.

 

[Noleggeisha]

For one, anything pre USADA is a completely different standard of testing than what we have now, and those of us in the wise know that are still probably a lot of people getting away with it now.

Post USADA UFC testing was an absolute joke. TRT juicing was actually legal for a long period of time as well.

Pride encouraged PED's ffs.

How are we going to compare a bunch of different era's with different testing standards and just disqualify those getting popped by USADA now?

I let ring accomplishments speak for themselves and Jones/Fedor/GSP/Anderson are all frontrunners. Testing be damned.

It’s a question of equity. Juice against juice, no one argues. I mean as long as AS fought juiced people, there is no controversy. But if he keeps on juicing while everyone else stops, this is an unfair advantage and he has to leave the discussion.

Now if you believe everyone is juiced and some just randomly get caught while others don’t, there is no debate possible.

 

[frye666]

There are 4 goat candidates. The same 4 for many years. 2 have popped. I still think most of us are still on board and would pick the same 4 names.

 

[-Magua-]

I don’t agree, but like life today, a straight forward thing can really be a bit confounding.

As a hint of a large dilemma, which I only discern the tip of this iceberg...

Regardless of peds...
seems to me
-Jones, Andy, gsp are top 3 goat material.

Of those 3, performance wise l, IMO I give it to bones.
-duration, Andy or gsp? I dunno?

Do we favor height, reach, anatomical advantages in accord with opposition?

Should it be height/reach and pound for pound?
(Again it’s a question, that seems retarded on my part, but I’m not sure it is)

If those 3 candidates, again, maybe in my 20 + years, I’ve overlooked another candidate, here’s the thing...

2 been suspended for peds
Gsp, suspected, and I’m a fan but of him, but yeah.

Goat is a very complex issue, or for a fan like me... harder than I thought.

 

[screaminleeman]

The PED user market will ALWAYS remain one step ahead of ANY AND EVERY testing system on Earth! Only the most gullible and naive sports fans can make an honest effort to dispute this. FUCK the testing B.S.

Let the fighters fight, and save many millions of $$$'s. Pass the savings back onto the fans, and drop PPV's to $40, we see FAR less fighters "pulling out" of fights, missing weight, getting injured in training etc. . .

Don't ANYONE dare lay claim that ALL of the "fight cancellation" horse crap was not 100% directly a result of PED testing.

I HATE zealots that cannot be realistic and live in today's world. Anyone that buys anything from ANY of the vitamin stores like GNC, and complains about athletes using PED's needs to be taken out back and shot! You do realize that 90% of the supplements on the shelf of a GNC that Joe Six-pack uses daily to be able to get out of bed, and drive into his office for a 9-5 desk job would cause a UFC fighter to fail USADA testing?

This supplement industry is a multi BILLION dollar one in the 21st century USA! As long as an immense percentage of USA citizen F-holes are allowed to use PED in their mundane existence, keeping a true athlete from using these supplements is damn near criminal.

Only F-tarded Government A-holes demand prohibition, and it has ALWAYS worked so damn well in history with all other "banned" substances, it damn near makes me want to exterminate anyone overzealous enough to hold PED usage against a fighter.

 

[dim_]

Goat discussions are entirely subjective.

If I want to discount people based on ped use I can, just as you can discount people based on anything you like, in cage cheating, missing weight, being from texas, being black (it would be racist but you are free to discount people based on whatever you like)

There is no set criteria for goat discussions, so as long as you can back up your argument to some degree anything goes

 

[podsox]

I don’t think it’s fair to cheat.

 

[Axefan4life]

The PED user market will ALWAYS remain one step ahead of ANY AND EVERY testing system on Earth! Only the most gullible and naive sports fans can make an honest effort to dispute this. FUCK the testing B.S.

Let the fighters fight, and save many millions of $$$'s. Pass the savings back onto the fans, and drop PPV's to $40, we see FAR less fighters "pulling out" of fights, missing weight, getting injured in training etc. . .

Don't ANYONE dare lay claim that ALL of the "fight cancellation" horse crap was not 100% directly a result of PED testing.

I HATE zealots that cannot be realistic and live in today's world. Anyone that buys anything from ANY of the vitamin stores like GNC, and complains about athletes using PED's needs to be taken out back and shot! You do realize that 90% of the supplements on the shelf of a GNC that Joe Six-pack uses daily to be able to get out of bed, and drive into his office for a 9-5 desk job would cause a UFC fighter to fail USADA testing?

This supplement industry is a multi BILLION dollar one in the 21st century USA! As long as an immense percentage of USA citizen F-holes are allowed to use PED in their mundane existence, keeping a true athlete from using these supplements is damn near criminal.

Only F-tarded Government A-holes demand prohibition, and it has ALWAYS worked so damn well in history with all other "banned" substances, it damn near makes me want to exterminate anyone overzealous enough to hold PED usage against a fighter.

If the user is always one step ahead why did Jones pop twice. If UFC wants to be considered legitimate they have to have testing, or the everyday casual will see it as even more of a joke. Maybe not USADA but something less stringent like the NFL that way it at least looks like they are trying to keep clean. Imo.

 

[screaminleeman]

If the user is always one step ahead why did Jones pop twice. If UFC wants to be considered legitimate they have to have testing, or the everyday casual will see it as even more of a joke. Maybe not USADA but something less stringent like the NFL that way it at least looks like they are trying to keep clean. Imo.

I meant that the PED manufacturing Industry will remain one step ahead of the Testing facilities. Any individual user can elect not to remain on the cutting edge of PED technology, and get caught as a result. One step ahead is what they are, not light years.

Yeah, Jon did not do a good job doing due diligence remaining above the testing curve, and is paying for it dearly. In hindsight, I bet he is kicking himself in the backside for being cheap, and NOT investing the money in the cutting edge PED's available to him.

 

[migeru29]

For one, anything pre USADA is a completely different standard of testing than what we have now, and those of us in the wise know that are still probably a lot of people getting away with it now.

Post USADA UFC testing was an absolute joke. TRT juicing was actually legal for a long period of time as well.

Pride encouraged PED's ffs.

How are we going to compare a bunch of different era's with different testing standards and just disqualify those getting popped by USADA now?

I let ring accomplishments speak for themselves and Jones/Fedor/GSP/Anderson are all frontrunners. Testing be damned.

Fedor lost against two TRT juicing fighters. So, yes, it does matter.

 

[surrealworlds]

For one, anything pre USADA is a completely different standard of testing than what we have now, and those of us in the wise know that are still probably a lot of people getting away with it now.

Post USADA UFC testing was an absolute joke. TRT juicing was actually legal for a long period of time as well.

Pride encouraged PED's ffs.

How are we going to compare a bunch of different era's with different testing standards and just disqualify those getting popped by USADA now?

I let ring accomplishments speak for themselves and Jones/Fedor/GSP/Anderson are all frontrunners. Testing be damned.

Such a rediculous premise. If you are talking about "fair" than dismissing PED failures is the only way to do it. Everyone participated with a set a rules established. PED failures got caught violating those rules and therefore are disqualified. Whether or not someone else or even everyone else used PEDs is immaterial to the discussion. They didnt get caught.

GOAT lists are subjective either way. I just look at it as two lists.
GOAT with asterisks
1.GSP
2.Fedor
3.Jon Jones*
4.Anderson Silva*
5.Daniel Cormier
(Honorable Mentions:Mighty Mouse, Conor Mcgregor)

GOAT
1.GSP
2.Fedor
3.Daniel Cormier
4. Mighty Mouse
5. Conor Mcgregor

 

[Axefan4life]

I meant that the PED manufacturing Industry will remain one step ahead of the Testing facilities. Any individual user can elect not to remain on the cutting edge of PED technology, and get caught as a result. One step ahead is what they are, not light years.

Yeah, Jon did not do a good job doing due diligence remaining above the testing curve, and is paying for it dearly. In hindsight, I bet he is kicking himself in the backside for being cheap, and NOT investing the money in the cutting edge PED's available to him.

I wonder if it's more about him fucking up cycling the shit not so much what he took. You'd think he'd easily have access to the best PEDs considering his bros are NFL players. Jones is good at making poor decisions lol. But i can see what you said being right too, blowing all his money on quality coke but skimping on the PEDS maybe.