I didn't really like Rory MacDonald...

[Nuclearlandmine]

So no Diaz breakdown? I'm sad. I want to see how Pedro breakdown a boxer in Nick Diaz when he doesn't know how to defend against a jab.

 

[j123]

So no Diaz breakdown? I'm sad. I want to see how Pedro breakdown a boxer in Nick Diaz when he doesn't know how to defend against a jab.

You really hate the Diaz bros don't you?

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

the boxing purist in me hate his overrated, over glorified "boxing" style. I cringed whenever he got bought into the discussion of boxing in mma. On the other hand, i hate his cult-like fans, even though all he did for quite a while was beating sub-par and over the hill competition, and of course whine like there's no tmr.

Now that the rant's done, back to waiting for Pedro's breakdown.

 

[Brando]

the boxing purist in me hate his overrated, over glorified "boxing" style. I cringed whenever he got bought into the discussion of boxing in mma. On the other hand, i hate his cult-like fans, even though all he did for quite a while was beating sub-par and over the hill competition, and of course whine like there's no tmr.

Now that the rant's done, back to waiting for Pedro's breakdown.

I have not followed this thread much. Nuke: Please re-read this post I made in response to you shitting on Diaz's boxing-in-mma in the past. Didn't hear back from you then.

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/95101377-post70.html

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

I didn't reply it because I don't need to. He's a MMA fighter, and I will judge his boxing based on how well he apply it in the MMA context, not based on a friendly boxing sparring vid. He might look good when it is only boxing, but then again I looked good while sparring too. Therefore I will only judge his boxing on the ground that he's compete, which is MMA. And he made me cringed every time somebody post about how he's a good MMA boxer. He isn't, period. His boxing within the context of MMA is shit and sloppy. I barely see anything that resemble a boxer in a cage. Now i wouldn't mind if people call him a brawler. He couldn't defend a jab for fuck's sake. If that's make me an elitist, so be it.

 

[Brando]

I didn't reply it because I don't need to. He's a MMA fighter, and I will judge his boxing based on how well he apply it in the MMA context, not based on a friendly boxing sparring vid. He might look good when it is only boxing, but then again I looked good while sparring too. Therefore I will only judge his boxing on the ground that he's compete, which is MMA.

I think the case may be that you aren't appreciating some of the concepts Diaz is applying, even with imperfect technique. He's not an idiot so your analysis needs to take that out of the equation so that you can start asking WHY he is doing certain things that look unfamiliar to you. I am in no way advocating that Diaz is a great boxing technician, but he consistently applies boxing concepts in MMA with success against upper-echelon fighters.

I am just going to Youtube a random Diaz fight and pull an example from the first significant punching exchange I see. If you really want, I will PM you a breakdown of a few of his fights. Not too much trouble, and the film study would help me anyway.

Okay, Diaz vs. Scott Smith.



Found my first real exchange around 1:16 (YouTube time, not round time!). You see Diaz with high posture and good probing hands extended while he closes the gap. He is occupying the space between the two, putting some traffic in the way of Scott's punches and crowding his static guard to shut down some options. He foot feints as he approaches. Works into a probing 1-2-3, then uses his lead hand to smother Smith's jab option while he taunts, baiting him.

With his momentum going backwards at 1:19, he fades away at a small angle with a cross, throws a hook, and ducks under Smith's counter right hand.

The theme here is Diaz applying heavy pressure without expending much energy. His pitter-pat punching and plodding both contribute to this strategy. Though these two things are often rejected by purists and thought of as bad technique, they do have their benefits. Like everything in boxing, there is a time and place, and each guard/foot position/punch variation/etc has pros and cons. It is just like having your hands down to enable better mobility, head movement, and punch angles. Diaz is sacrificing certain attributes (power, damage, speedy feet) to keep a handle on his energy expenditure, while he pours pressure to sap his opponent's energy. This is no secret - it's Diaz's game. He is probing, generating tension and threat, and tiring Smith out in this little exchange. He is using boxing concepts in an MMA context to achieve a desired outcome. You can PM me if you like, I'd love to talk more.

Edit: added the fight clip.

 

[j123]

I think the case may be that you aren't appreciating some of the concepts Diaz is applying, even with imperfect technique. He's not an idiot so your analysis needs to take that out of the equation so that you can start asking WHY he is doing certain things that look unfamiliar to you. I am in no way advocating that Diaz is a great boxing technician, but he consistently applies boxing concepts in MMA with success against upper-echelon fighters.

I am just going to Youtube a random Diaz fight and pull an example from the first significant punching exchange I see. If you really want, I will PM you a breakdown of a few of his fights. Not too much trouble, and the film study would help me anyway.

Okay, Diaz vs. Scott Smith.



Found my first real exchange around 1:16 (YouTube time, not round time!). You see Diaz with high posture and good probing hands extended while he closes the gap. He is occupying the space between the two, putting some traffic in the way of Scott's punches and crowding his static guard to shut down some options. He foot feints as he approaches. Works into a probing 1-2-3, then uses his lead hand to smother Smith's jab option while he taunts, baiting him.

With his momentum going backwards at 1:19, he fades away at a small angle with a cross, throws a hook, and ducks under Smith's counter right hand.

The theme here is Diaz applying heavy pressure without expending much energy. His pitter-pat punching and plodding both contribute to this strategy. Though these two things are often rejected by purists and thought of as bad technique, they do have their benefits. Like everything in boxing, there is a time and place, and each guard/foot position/punch variation/etc has pros and cons. It is just like having your hands down to enable better mobility, head movement, and punch angles. Diaz is sacrificing certain attributes (power, damage, speedy feet) to keep a handle on his energy expenditure, while he pours pressure to sap his opponent's energy. This is no secret - it's Diaz's game. He is probing, generating tension and threat, and tiring Smith out in this little exchange. He is using boxing concepts in an MMA context to achieve a desired outcome. You can PM me if you like, I'd love to talk more.

Edit: added the fight clip.

 

[Discipulus]

Diaz is an effective but ultimately very limited fighter. I'm not sure I agree with the notion of refusing to call what he does "boxing," but I can certainly see why it rankles some people, particularly when you have guys like Pedro claiming that Diaz is an incredibly skilled boxer, which he really isn't. His boxing works for him more as a result of stylistic matchups than a result of his great skill. In other words, opponents that know how to fight someone with Nick's style consistently beat him. He is dangerous, and he will take every opportunity he is given, but he is limited because he's all but incapable of adjusting from round-to-round.

Things Nick does well:
- volume punching
- varied angle of attacks (body-head, uppercuts, hooks, and straights)
- exchange (skillfully or not, he wins a lot of fights because he has no fear of countering--or getting countered--in the pocket
-handfighting

Things Nick does poorly:
- nuanced defense
- footwork (very little ability to cut off the cage)
- adaptation (he'll keep doing it until it works, or doesn't)

Basically, Nick Diaz is a pressure fighter or swarmer, but his pressure is entirely mental. He doesn't have the footwork or the fight IQ to back it up. So as long as you're not sucked in by his taunting, or overly afraid of his assault, you can outmaneuver and beat him on the feet.

Edit: Of course, that's easier said than done, and it's the reason I enjoy watching his fights so much--will his opponent succumb and let him have his way, or will they outsmart him? And if they do, can they continue to outsmart him for 3-5 rounds? Still, that limitation is the reason he can't make it at the highest levels. He'd never be able to beat the top 5 welterweights today, because they can all stick to a gameplan, and they're mostly tough, crusty bastards who don't get intimidated by simple scare tactics.

Or you can just threaten to wrestle him, and he'll shut down offensively.

 

[a guy]

I think the case may be that you aren't appreciating some of the concepts Diaz is applying, even with imperfect technique. He's not an idiot so your analysis needs to take that out of the equation so that you can start asking WHY he is doing certain things that look unfamiliar to you. I am in no way advocating that Diaz is a great boxing technician, but he consistently applies boxing concepts in MMA with success against upper-echelon fighters.

I am just going to Youtube a random Diaz fight and pull an example from the first significant punching exchange I see. If you really want, I will PM you a breakdown of a few of his fights. Not too much trouble, and the film study would help me anyway.

Okay, Diaz vs. Scott Smith.



Found my first real exchange around 1:16 (YouTube time, not round time!). You see Diaz with high posture and good probing hands extended while he closes the gap. He is occupying the space between the two, putting some traffic in the way of Scott's punches and crowding his static guard to shut down some options. He foot feints as he approaches. Works into a probing 1-2-3, then uses his lead hand to smother Smith's jab option while he taunts, baiting him.

With his momentum going backwards at 1:19, he fades away at a small angle with a cross, throws a hook, and ducks under Smith's counter right hand.

The theme here is Diaz applying heavy pressure without expending much energy. His pitter-pat punching and plodding both contribute to this strategy. Though these two things are often rejected by purists and thought of as bad technique, they do have their benefits. Like everything in boxing, there is a time and place, and each guard/foot position/punch variation/etc has pros and cons. It is just like having your hands down to enable better mobility, head movement, and punch angles. Diaz is sacrificing certain attributes (power, damage, speedy feet) to keep a handle on his energy expenditure, while he pours pressure to sap his opponent's energy. This is no secret - it's Diaz's game. He is probing, generating tension and threat, and tiring Smith out in this little exchange. He is using boxing concepts in an MMA context to achieve a desired outcome. You can PM me if you like, I'd love to talk more.

Edit: added the fight clip.

Just wanna say I really enjoy your posts, and watching Diaz fight. His mental pressure is where it's really at.

Nuke just loves to hate things.

 

[Jukai]

Brando, I love your posts and I applauded your specific post in the thread you linked. It's a great breakdown of Diaz's very good boxing.

Our problem arose where Pedro began shitting on several MMA fighters' boxing, and then he cited Diaz as the perfect example of a boxer. He described his footwork and movement as "polished" and "fundamental."

I personally like Diaz. I still think he is a bad matchup for Lawler. But in this very specific instance, a poster who had no idea what he was talking about was using Diaz as the ideal example of boxing in MMA, and while Diaz uses a lot of boxing concepts perfectly in the realm of MMA, he is very poor at other concepts... the same concepts Pedro described as "polished."

Keep up with those breakdowns, they are excellent.

 

[Discipulus]

Brando's link also shows that Nick might be a bit better at cutting people off in the ring. He shares a lot of similarities with Antonio Margarito, except that Margarito was better coached and much more powerful.

Boy, did Henry let Diaz off the hook a lot in that sparring session, though.

 

[Jukai]

Brando's link also shows that Nick might be a bit better at cutting people off in the ring. He shares a lot of similarities with Antonio Margarito, except that Margarito was better coached and much more powerful.

I was more impressed with his head and body movement, he moved his head off center constantly. He almost never does that in MMA.

Boy, did Henry let Diaz off the hook a lot in that sparring session, though.

In fairness, Diaz probably let Henry off the hook even more by not taking him down and choking him out...

 

[devante]

Often times people focus so much on someone's limitations...holes or tech shortcomings that they can't appreciate the good shit they do...many times people complain about someone overhyped footwork..offense..defense...counters..kicking..punching..etc.

But there is no discussion as to how its effective..other than saying the guys they are facing suck...I feel that is a lazy way of thinking and takes away from both the subject his coaches his opponent and their coaches.

Just because a guy isnt high level doesn't mean he can't be effective...just because he isnt hih level doesn't mean he isnt using a certain art or doesn't understand a certain art...

It seems like people only do one side of the equation..he sucks..this is wrong..that is wrong..etc..etc. without discussing the hows and whys behind their effectiveness or giving credit to the positives of their game....

If your only seeing one side...then your not really giving a fair or reasonable assessment...that goes for being positive or negative.

I think Diaz has skills..and applies the concepts and strategies; how he applies them tech may be lacking...but that doesn't mean the idea isnt there ...just that the execution isnt top notch.

 

[Babba]

devante one of the few guys here isnt pessimistic and negative as fuck about something they dont like, i appriciate that

 

[Discipulus]

Truth. Devante is one of the most reasonable, thoughtful guys on this board. Black Jordan Breen 4 lyfe!

 

[Nuclearlandmine]

I think the case may be that you aren't appreciating some of the concepts Diaz is applying, even with imperfect technique. He's not an idiot so your analysis needs to take that out of the equation so that you can start asking WHY he is doing certain things that look unfamiliar to you. I am in no way advocating that Diaz is a great boxing technician, but he consistently applies boxing concepts in MMA with success against upper-echelon fighters.

I am just going to Youtube a random Diaz fight and pull an example from the first significant punching exchange I see. If you really want, I will PM you a breakdown of a few of his fights. Not too much trouble, and the film study would help me anyway.

Okay, Diaz vs. Scott Smith.



Found my first real exchange around 1:16 (YouTube time, not round time!). You see Diaz with high posture and good probing hands extended while he closes the gap. He is occupying the space between the two, putting some traffic in the way of Scott's punches and crowding his static guard to shut down some options. He foot feints as he approaches. Works into a probing 1-2-3, then uses his lead hand to smother Smith's jab option while he taunts, baiting him.

With his momentum going backwards at 1:19, he fades away at a small angle with a cross, throws a hook, and ducks under Smith's counter right hand.

The theme here is Diaz applying heavy pressure without expending much energy. His pitter-pat punching and plodding both contribute to this strategy. Though these two things are often rejected by purists and thought of as bad technique, they do have their benefits. Like everything in boxing, there is a time and place, and each guard/foot position/punch variation/etc has pros and cons. It is just like having your hands down to enable better mobility, head movement, and punch angles. Diaz is sacrificing certain attributes (power, damage, speedy feet) to keep a handle on his energy expenditure, while he pours pressure to sap his opponent's energy. This is no secret - it's Diaz's game. He is probing, generating tension and threat, and tiring Smith out in this little exchange. He is using boxing concepts in an MMA context to achieve a desired outcome. You can PM me if you like, I'd love to talk more.

Edit: added the fight clip.

While i appreciate you taking the time, I really aren't going to change my mind any time soon. And yes, he's an idiot, a one dimensional BRAWLER idiot. This is the same guy who couldn't adjust for shits vs Condit for 5 rounds, resort to trash talking instead of fighting. Also, most if not all of his wins pre-Condit all followed a very predictable manners, brawling manners. As for his record, i really don't think his record are nowhere near enough "upper echelon", considering his "murderder's rows" consisted of "luminaries" such as Cyborg Santos, Zaromskis, Frank Shamrock and Scott Smith. He only have one or two quality wins during this stretch. Even then he always take heavy blows during his wins. He's really a product of favourable match up at best. I might not appreciate his concepts, but his matches already told me everything i need to know about him.

I was more impressed with his head and body movement, he moved his head off center constantly. He almost never does that in MMA.

In fairness, Diaz probably let Henry off the hook even more by not taking him down and choking him out...

Which bring me to a question, if he's capable, then why wouldn't he do it then? For all the talks about him being a boxer, he never displayed that in a MMA match, prefer to eat punches and brawl instead. Which of course made me refused to refer to him as a boxer.

 

[Jukai]

Which bring me to a question, if he's capable, then why wouldn't he do it then? For all the talks about him being a boxer, he never displayed that in a MMA match, prefer to eat punches and brawl instead. Which of course made me refused to refer to him as a boxer.

I assume he feels that with his chin and workrate, he's actually more effective just eating punches and breaking his opponent down. Sure, he may eat a solid right to the face, but he's also landed three pitter patter jabs and a slap at the same time and he's taken away something from his opponent mentally.