I am an ex-Scientologist. (LONG read)

[willhaven720]

I remember just about everything I read, so yeah...a photographic memory of sorts.

But I can go to class or work with someone for a month while having to ask them what their name is EVERY SINGLE FUCKING DAY. I can't remember phone numbers or equations. I

 

[willhaven720]

Case in point. Have you studied the teachings? Can you discuss them? Do you know the fundamentals that the subject is built upon?

Oh yeah...

AND do you think I am an SP?

 

[rnaviaux]

Oh yeah...

AND do you think I am an SP?

I have no idea. Still wondering what words you were referring to that I am using that make my answers unintelligible.

 

[willhaven720]

I have no idea. Still wondering what words you were referring to that I am using that make my answers unintelligible.

No answer-answers. That's all. Just speak from the heart. I saw that in your last post, talking about dudes in your class. Keep that train of thinking and just "let it all go". Let it flow. Ya know?

Thanks for not giving me the auto-sp treatment.

I could tell from the first post that you are a good person. Just like many, but certainly not all scientologists.

Which reminds me? Do you believe in the 80%/18%/2% ratio of good/pts/sp's in the world?

 

[Darwinist]

That's all fine and dandy. But what I'd like to know is, do you know the addresses of the members of Sigur Ros? Ya know, so I can lurk on them!

No, but I do know where their studio is located It's in an old refurbished swimming pool in Mosfellsb

 

[rnaviaux]

I sure have and can. What sort of fundamentls of scientology would you like to discuss? Perhaps others can learn from our debate.

I'll start.

How does looking at pictures in your mind repeatedly give you spiritual freedom?

How come there is no person alive that has demonstrated the state of Clear or OT in any real way?

Why is it that the tech always has to be "fixed"? And don't say because of David Mayo. That's bullshit. We already have the new and improved golden age of tech and there are still no tangible results.

Why is there no tolerance for these sort of discussions at a church of scientology? Why is that department not on the org board?

How is yelling and screaming at people who don't want to practice scientology, an ethical choice?

If one needs to have a clean conscience to receive the desired effect of scientology, why are staff-members behaving in such immorally thuggish ways?

Why is it that if you disagree, AS A MEMBER ON COURSE, with some datum of Hubbard's... Why are you told to study it until you get it? Why is there no discussion?

Why would another society in the galaxy have a 50's-era sci-fi name like Hallitrobus, led by Prince Xenu? Why isn't it called planet Sassy, led by Prince Jeff?

Do you think everyone is PTS? Or do you think there is some logic to saying that all accidents/mistakes and illness are from PTSness?

Do you think it's ok for a child to work for the Sea Org?

Which "exchange condition" is paying those children 36 cents an hour for 100 hour weeks?

If Hubbard tells you to "follow the laws of the land", and then doesn't do so himself... Do you think that going out to sea is a reasonable loop-hole to the above statement?

That's a good start. I look forward to your heart-filled responses.

Sorry I should have put who that question was directed to. It was a different poster. Oh wait I just checked. My post did have the posters name in it.

Lets take a look at your list of questions...looks like a compilation of different types of questions. I'll pass on those that I have no clue what your talking about or haven't observed myself.

(Personally I wish when I was underage I could have have worked at a church. I tried when I was 12 but wasn't allowed to because I was underage. I was pretty bummed as I really wanted to work there.)

Now your first question is really a humdinger. Are you asking about looking at a single picture (a memory for the laity) repeatedly or looking at numerous pictures repeatedly?

There are about 15 books and a couple hundred lectures that answer that question. (Well, maybe not that exact question but certainly the question of how one achieves spiritual freedom by handling the various factors in the mind that have entrapped one.) I'm hoping your not expecting me to rewrite/rewrite/paraphrase all of those materials here. Are you?

Are you asking because you don't know? Or are you just asking the question so you can make fun of anything I have to say? Can't really tell. In any case a true discussion of fundamentals would have to start at the beginning with Dianetics - The Modern Science of Mental Health and the first principle upon which many other things are based. That's of course the idea that all life is trying to survive. (The exact principle can be found at dianetics.org and scientology.org for those following along. It's called the "Dynamic Principle of Existence.")

Much could be said and has been said about this principle. Once again I'm not going to rewrite a book here.

I don't know much about this "fixing of tech" you refer to. Again for the laity "tech" is short for "technology" which simply means the application of some principle. Emphasis being put upon application. In Scientology one isn't expected to believe something. One learns a principle and applies it to find out if it has workability in improving one's own life or another's life.

There have been releases of the works of Mr. Hubbard's that haven't been available before for various reasons. This covers a gamut of things from transcription errors being cleaned up in books to entire lecture series made available that help to expand upon a subject covered by a book. Since there are approx 3000 lectures Mr. Hubbard has recorded its a pretty big project that has been long in coming. Of course as more of what Mr. Hubbard has to say about Scientology becomes available it makes the entire subject more understandable. I don't view this as "fixing".

Tangible results? Geez - I really don't know how you want this answered. Since tangible is basically defined as something you can touch and "spiritual" is basically defined as something not material you got me on that one. (Spirit = the immaterial part of a person.) I've gotten a lot of results from my studies and have heard family and friends tell me about some of their gains and results.

You sure are using a lot of terms that aren't going to be familiar with outsiders. "Org Board" stand for organizing board. It's an organizational chart that lays out the different departments and functions of a church as well as who is in charge of them.

What sort of discussions are you saying there is no tolerance for? I discuss Scientology with my fellow Scientologists when I wish. What department are you talking about that is absent?

I haven't yelled or hollered at anyone for not wanting to study or practice Scientology. Nor have I observed it in 30 years. If I do I'll be sure to do something about it though. Most of the people that I have helped over the last ten years haven't been Scientologists. I could care or less what they do. I'm just happy that I was able to help them out with the application of some Scientological principles to the point they felt like their lives had been improved. (Boy it sounds like you have had a really rough life. Bummmer!)

The staff members that I know aren't immoral or thuggish. I guess your referring to the videos. I think I've already covered in an earlier post.


Now this is an interesting point:

"Why is it that if you disagree, AS A MEMBER ON COURSE, with some datum of Hubbard's... Why are you told to study it until you get it? Why is there no discussion? "

I've never been told to study it until I get it. But your leaving out an important point either knowingly or unknowingly. When you are in a courseroom (There is a great video covering this at scientology.org by the way.) there are no teachers. There is a supervisor that will help you clear things up if you don't understand something.

As far as agreeing that's up to you. There have been plenty of things I have disagreed with. There can be different reasons for this but sometimes it's simply something I just disagree with. There hasn't been a problem. I've also seen other students disagree with things as well.

But your question "Why is there no discussion?" is unfortunately unfathomable to me as I have seen plenty of discussions about things a student has brought up. Especially with newer students. I rarely discuss things when I am in class as what someone else thinks about what I am reading is far less important to me than what I think. But then I've always hated group discussions in school so that might just be me. Mostly seemed like a waste of time.

Geez - Now you are using an acronym nobody else is going to get. I invite people to go to here for more info on the term PTS: Cause of Suppression, How can Scientology help me...

To answer your questions on this topic: 1. No. 2. Yes

Children in the sea org: I have a lot of opinions on this. But its getting late and their just my opinions. Needless to say the laws of the land should not be violated.

For a good understanding of my viewpoints on this subject one can read "The Way To Happiness." The Way to Happiness Foundation - Official Site Home Page - The Way to Happiness: A Common Sense Guide To Better Living, by L. Ron Hubbard. It will save me a lot of typing and also address your last question as well.

 

[rnaviaux]

No answer-answers. That's all. Just speak from the heart. I saw that in your last post, talking about dudes in your class. Keep that train of thinking and just "let it all go". Let it flow. Ya know?

Thanks for not giving me the auto-sp treatment.

I could tell from the first post that you are a good person. Just like many, but certainly not all scientologists.

Which reminds me? Do you believe in the 80%/18%/2% ratio of good/pts/sp's in the world?

Funny about your no answer-answers comment. What words are you talking about that I use that makes my post hard for others to understand? You haven't answered this question yet you are using acronyms and words that clearly others will not understand. (At the very least its a pain in the ass as I'm having to explain these terms to "them.")

Yeah there are many things you have been able to tell about me from my posts. You have made that clear from the beginning.

I have no idea what your talking about re "let it all go". Care to explain?

"...just like many, but certainly not all Scientologists" - You got me on that one. Sounds like you personally know a lot more Scientologists than I do.

When you ask a question about what I "believe" in when it comes to some aspect of Scientology then I have to wonder if you were ever really a Scientologist. (I gotta admit it sure seems like you were. If not you trolled me but good.)

I don't "believe" in Scientology.

Scientology: Personal Integrity by L. Ron Hubbard

To answer your question though: It certainly seems like a majority of individuals try to help others and themselves to do better in life. Per my experience and observations I've only run into very few individuals that seem bent on making life miserable for others.

 

[willhaven720]

Sorry Randy. I got caught up in something else for a little bit...

Before I get into everything else. I'd like you to look at this question and know that I didn't mean it as a joke.

Why would another society in the galaxy have a 50's-era sci-fi name like Hallitrobus, led by Prince Xenu? Why isn't it called planet Sassy, led by Prince Jeff?

Or planet seufhsfhsgghbh led by prince hesohofhnwef.

You see my point?

If you were a sci-fi writer in that era, what would you name it? I think Hallitrobus and Xenu sound about right. The point of this exercise is to ask yourself a question and get a specific answer.

I definitely WAS a scientologist. How else would I be write so easily about the subject?

You don't need to do OTIII to listen to LRH talk about "space-opera". Just listen to the PDCs. He talks about his past life on Hallitrobus, where he was a race car driver who committed suicide on the track. He said that the medicine was so good that you could just be kept alive forever. And he had enough! lol

I think the PDCs are only a grand or two. Chump change compared to the bridge. DEFINITELY worth the listen.

Please don't get stuck on this brother. DM called it points or subjects of "faith". Which it would have to be because you and I cannot explore space to find out if there is such a place or a person.

My question is more like... do you have the same faith?

A yes or no would work for me. I will not bring it up again.

If I could get you to do anything, it would be to watch this entire interview by Jason Beghe.



*edit incoming*

 

[willhaven720]

No, but I do know where their studio is located It's in an old refurbished swimming pool in Mosfellsb

 

[rnaviaux]

Willhaven - You see my point?

Sorry but no.

I have pretty much all of the available lectures on cd on the subject of Scientology by Mr. Hubbard. (PDC stands for Philadelphia Doctorate Course. A lectures series given by Mr. Hubbard in 1952 delineating the potentials of the spiritual being.) As Mr. WillHaven alludes to there is some pretty wild stuff in there.

My question is more like... do you have the same faith?

A yes or no would work for me. I will not bring it up again.

You promise? But seriously, the same faith as what? Are you asking if I believe everything Mr. Hubbard says is "true?" I thought I already covered this point; One doesn't believe in Scientology or what Mr. Hubbard says. One applies it and finds out if it works or not. One has to find out for himself if the various principles are workable. What a person believes or thinks about his past existence as a spiritual being is left up to him. Mr. Hubbard in fact states in several places to not believe in what he has to say but rather to study it and apply the principles therein to existence and see what life is. Not because he says such and such but because you yourself have observed it.

If you had ever been a Scientologist you would know this.

On the other hand there may be Scientologists that believe in all sorts of things. I happen to know Scientologists that also belong to other faiths ranging from Christianity to Islam and all sort of things in between. I guess they have all kinds of beliefs. Its simply not required to believe in what Mr. Hubbard says.

We do have a creed of the Church of Scientology and a code of a Scientologist. I guess if you disagree (don't believe) with those then maybe this religion isn't for you.

I watched part of the Jason Beghe diatribe before. He sounds pissed! Not much more that I got out of it than that

 

[rnaviaux]

WillHaven720 - Are you going to answer my question about what words I used that would make my posts hard to understand? I work very hard to not use terminology that others wouldn't understand both in my day to day life and on the net so if I let slip with something that was esoteric please point it out.

By the way that's another principle one learns in his studies of Scientology. If one wishes to communicate its best if he uses words that others can understand (not always possible but one should try) so as not to cause additional confusions or upsets.

 

[willhaven720]

I would like you to watch the entire video. It would at least be a learning experience to listen to someone who DID it. Class V, OTV. Golden age of tech. The best C/S's and auditors in the world were handling his case. So why did it fail?

He talks about his wins and gains in the beginning. And his realization of what was happening to him at the time. He was a self-admitted "past-lifetime clear". A phrase that many of us have said. But why do we say it?

My personal belief is in "no gods, no masters". But that does not mean there is no spiritual side of life. One must keep an open mind in order to seek truth.

And the bridge to total freedom isn't the bridge to spiritual freedom. It's the bridge to TOTAL freedom. Not-isness is VERY MUCH a mest-universe thing.

P.S. You are doing very well to clear up everyone's MUs. You might even get someone here to read a book. At the very least, it's getting you in the game. I hope you don't feel too manipulated.

I wish I was named Randy. It's the best name.

 

[Failcake]

rnaviaux - What do you know about thetans and xenu?


What do you make of this video?

 

[Falsedawn]

If you REALLY want to delve extremely deep into Co$, search "Wise Beard Man" on ED. The disclaimer just MIGHT have a link to all of the leaked Scientology courses in .rar form. Also, THAT page MIGHT have a link to wikileaks detailing reports on the Co$ and their actions, including a comprehensive report on Operation Snow White (*wink wink, nudge nudge*).

 

[rnaviaux]

They just don't understand because of the words you choose ....

Well I've gone through all my posts and can't find what words I'm using that would be hard to understand. Since your not going to answer my question regarding this and are in fact doing exactly what you accuse me of doing I think its safe to say this "discussion" isn't going anywhere.

 

[willhaven720]

Well I've gone through all my posts and can't find what words I'm using that would be hard to understand. Since your not going to answer my question regarding this and are in fact doing exactly what you accuse me of doing I think its safe to say this "discussion" isn't going anywhere.

Sorry man. I just wanted you to watch that video before I went into it. And I will do so now. It just would have been easier, had you done so.

Good morning, by the way.

*edit incoming*

I will start with your first post.

Interesting - Sure would be nice to get the perspective from a current member. I wonder who could do such a thing...I guess I could.

Having been in the "cult" and "brainwashed" for over thirty years I guess my observations wouldn't count for much.

Plain and simple, you're playing the "sympathy card" here. I'd also like to point out that you, a Scientologist in good standing, are being 1.1 (sarcastic) in doing so.

I personally have no problem in your tone or manner of speaking, but others might. Like L Ron Hubbard.

*edit incoming*

Next, as a response to Darwinist's question of...

3. As a rough estimate, how much money would you say you have spent in those 30 years on auditing, literature and other services of the CoS?

You said:

Not nearly enough! Seriously, I don't share personal financial info with anyone besides my wife.

That, for whatever reason, is you avoiding a direct question. But if I had to guess, I'd say you were a little embarrassed about it. This would be for one of 2 reasons, which are both equally valid.

1. You have spent a TON of money on it and are afraid to dismay people from judgment based upon that figure.

2. You have spent very little money and not moved very far up the bridge in 30 years. In which case, you might seem like less of an authority on the matter to those who are reading. I'm not saying that you believe yourself to be an authority on the matter of Scientology. I'm just talking about the perception of others reading along. And if you haven't noticed, they're paying WAY more attention to you, than me. And THAT is because, they don't understand how a logical person could believe such things.

And I can assure those people that their lives could be completely different, given a different upbringing. They could have been born in Nazi Germany. They could have been a child solider in Africa. And they shouldn't judge you or I for where we are today.

But while most of those people would guess you to be in the 1st category, I would put money on the 2nd to be more likely.

It's true that only you know. I'm just guessing based on my experience with Scientologists.

*edit incoming*

Next...

I study all sorts of things all the time with no fear of getting written up for "other practices". Heck I even read psychology and psychiatric books. I've read and done all sorts of wild things from astrology to yoga and some weird form of zen meditation. Haven't gotten in trouble yet

You are directly misleading people here. And you know exactly why you are doing it.

1. You are giving people the idea that it is "ok", in the church's eyes, to be a "half-scientologist". And you know that's bullshit. Yes, the church will take anyone's money. But if you are a psycologist... you will never EVER be allowed to do church services. Which leads me to...

2. You probably don't want people to know about the church's complete and total disdain for psychiatric care. I'm not saying it should be liked or disliked. But the church certainly has an opinion. One which is shoved down it's members throats quite often. And that doesn't go over too well with people. You know that for a fact.

3. I don't know any REAL members who are also Christian. I doubt you do either. That all came from "implant stations", or so we're told. Would you like to clear up that MU for people? They are probably already familiar with the concept from South Park.

*edit incoming*

 

[Darwinist]

Well I've gone through all my posts and can't find what words I'm using that would be hard to understand. Since your not going to answer my question regarding this and are in fact doing exactly what you accuse me of doing I think its safe to say this "discussion" isn't going anywhere.

It's not hard to understand as such - but what is hard to swallow is that you say you are "happy to answer any questions" and then when I ask you questions you are all "I can't comment on that" or "I wouldn't know about that" when I KNOW that if you've been in Scientology for 30 years, you know plenty. You are more diplomatic than most Scilons I

 

[willhaven720]

When you responded to my statement of...

If you ever told an Ethics Officer that you believed in Psychology and Psychiatry, you would be in a world of hurt. As you well know, anyone prescribed medication or treatment from a Psychiatrist is banned from receiving auditing in a church. The term "Illegal PC" or "Illegal Pre-Clear" is the status given to those individuals. The church has labeled all practices of psycho-analysis as enemies of the church. L Ron Hubbard and the church had long ago made it their goal to have those medical practices SHUT DOWN.

You are nowhere NEAR hard-line.

Again, where are you on the bridge? (note that by reiterating my question, I am now practicing the scientology method known as "TR3" or "Training Routine 3".) Let's see if scientology works! :icon_chee

You said a couple of things I'm going to pick on you about.

To clarify: Reading a book on a subject doesn't mean I endorse it. I've read "Mad in America" but doesn't mean I endorse electric shock or lobotomy. If I supported those practices then I would rightly be tossed out of the church as we do disagree with that sort of thing.

You know damn well you would be thrown out for much less than electric shock or lobotomies. All you would have to do is see a therapist for counseling. And you know that.

Persons undergoing spiritual counseling called "auditing" have a number of rules they are to follow. Not taking psychiatric medications is one of them. Not drinking the night before is another.

I love how you make it sound like the two situations are even remotely similar. Had a drink last night? No auditing today. Had a prozac last year? No auditing for life. That's the truth. State it as such, or you'll seem like you're hiding something from people.

When you say the church has labeled "all" practices of psycho-analysis as enemies of the church I have a hard time responding. First off I don't know what all the practices are so can't confirm or deny your statement. If its telling the person what is wrong with him then yes there is a rule in auditing to not tell the person what is wrong with him or tell him what he should think about himself.

This is sherdog, bro. We know what "can't confirm or deny" means.

You are spinning the truth here. And you're not doing a very good job at it either. In the future, try not to sound like a politician covering up a scandal. Words like "I'm not sure" work much better in keeping it real with people ("disseminating with reality").

I don't tell people on the net what progress I have made in auditing so sorry, I won't be answering that question. For me personally, that is a private thing.

Obvious hiding is obvious. It's sherdog. Not the ex-member site. Let your hands go goddammit!

Oops - Should add something about "Illegal Preclears". A preclear is someone undergoing auditing. A person who has had extensive treatment from a psychiatrist is usually not allowed to get auditing (spiritual counseling) in a church due to the damage that has already been done to his nervous system via drugs, shocks or lobotomies. (If one really wants the full reasoning behind this the relevant policies are available at a church.)

Yes because every day more and more people are walking into CoS's around the world who have had electric shock therapy and lobotomies. Ninja please!

You and I both know that's just a talking point for Scienologists.

And while I disagree with the obvious over-drugging in ALL medicine, some of that stuff helps people. I'm not even disagreeing that it should be the rule to turn away new members who have taken those kinds of drugs. I'm just pointing out the spin on your part to make it less of a factor in Scientology.

Would you like further lessons on how to properly sell and defend Scientology? Because that's what I was trained to do. And that's why I see straight through all the spin. It's not YOUR spin though. You just picked it up over the years with the church.

 

[willhaven720]

The point is that when you talk this way, you are responded to this way...

Well it looks like someone reported this thread to the “overlords” and they have sent “messenger” to tell their “truths”.

I would like to see your members burn down your churches.

Answer this man's questions.

Will you get a stat if I click the link? Lol Tom Cruiseology. You fucks deserve all the ridicule humanly possible. You'll wise up and blow one day.

convert to muslim dude

Scientology owns.

Greatest scam since the Catholic Church

BTW, a fool and his money are soon parted

pwnt

GREAT post. Thanks for sharing. I'd like to hear the POV from someone into Scientology (not OSA or some other PR rep).

And in case you haven't been paying attention, I've defended you every time. Because I am not a bad person or an SP. On the contrary, suppression is the very thing I am speaking out against.

I truly want you and others to think for themselves. And am not just saying so.

 

[in the]

POV about what?

Although I have been accused of being from OSA before I'm not. I haven't a clue how to prove that though.

As a rebuttal of what the TS typed. I know there are two sides to every story, but I've heard so many horror stories from ex-Scienos that I don't believe they came together to make up the same stuff.

I admit that I used to be against Scientology, but now, if someone wants to get into it, I have a hard time feeling too much pity. To willingly let an organization like that take your freedoms away is madness. I guess I reserve most of my pity for the second-generation+ Scienos who have never known life outside of Scientology.

I'm against banning Scientology, but I don't see it as a positive organization. And I'm not going to "try" it, either. I've tried to read as much as I can with an open mind, and I have a hard time seeing it as anything but what someone labeled a bait-and-switch religion.