How would have Brock vs. Fabricio Werdum gone?

[Subline]

Werdum wins with his crafty muay thai, on the ground he is too good for Lesnar.

 

[SSgt Dickweed]

I'm curious of the contingent of folks picking werdum by sub ... how many of yall have wrestled and or (preferably and) done BJJ?

I'm not claiming to be a master of either but my limited experience leads me to believe that folks often underestimate the importance of positional grappling.


The vast majority of successful submissions come from advantageous or at a minimum "even" positions. (Full guard)
It is TOUGH to sub an elite fighter without a dominant position and dominant position vs Brock is not an easy place to get to.

(Mir had a bullshit standup save his ass from a TKO loss and give him an undeserved opportunity to establish a dangerous positi9n that I do not believe he gets without mazagatti and his questionable standup and point deduction).


Brock usually drove that power form tackle of a shot into either side control.or top half guard.

Frank Mir's "Mir lock" on Pete Williams is the only sub I am aware of from bottom half guard. And that was a million years ago and an enormous grappling skill mismatch.


I know Ezekiel choke is POSSIBLE from bottom.mount (mounted)

Olienik has done it... I don't know if he ever got one (mounted) in UFC. I know he got them in UFC ( from top mount or some form of guard)

But again- he is the best Ezekiel guy in MMA history and probably only hit it in UFC against weaker opponents.

Brock was one of the best NCAA wrestlers in HW mma history. And logistically his neck is so thick good luck squeezing that thing to OFF position.


Werdum .... MAYBE if he hurt Brock bad enough... could catch a sub, but it would be far from an easy thing to pull off.

Brock pre diverticulitis is a PROBLEM. His ground and pound was malicious and his standing striking- which gets shit on for his bad defense.... but offensively he dropped and rocked a few dudes. Dropped Randy and fuckin sent Heath Herring across the cage with standing punches.

Kings MMA Rafael Cordero trained werdum would have a striking technique edge... but he was still a flawed striker which showed when he charged chin up at Stipe.



Honestly i think both in prime (werdum that beat Cain vs UFC 100 pre diverticulitis Brock) .... that is a toss up. Either man could win imo standing or on the ground... likely by finish one way or another

Brock could've not exploited Werdum in striking like Stipe did. Stipe had rudimentary striking technique but gifted with a lot of dynamite. From the limited appearances we saw of him, Brock could not strike as effectively as Stipe, and didn't have as much KO power.

I know that Brock's wrestling was very effective in MMA taking account his size, but Werdum's BJJ is on a level he could nullify Brock's strengths in top position IMO.

 

[jeff7b9]

Brock could've not exploited Werdum in striking like Stipe did. Stipe had rudimentary striking technique but gifted with a lot of dynamite. From the limited appearances we saw of him, Brock could not strike as effectively as Stipe, and didn't have as much KO power.

I know that Brock's wrestling was very effective in MMA taking account his size, but Werdum's BJJ is on a level he could nullify Brock's strengths in top position IMO.

Brocks striking was not pretty but it was definitely powerful

He took Randy out of the fight with one right cross.

Sent Herring back about 12 feet with one punch

And dropped frank Mir iirc ... again, 1 punch.


Werdum may have hurt Brock on the feet. Especially post training with Rafael Cordeiro. But werdum had plenty of bad moments and ugly standup technique too.

That fight easily could have looked one sided either way.

If Brock was in side control or half guard werdum is fucked.
...MAYBE full guard gives werdum some sort of hope but I doubt even werdum himself would.like his odds fighting Brock off his back.

Javier Mendes said it very well.

We.can beat Brock on top we can Beat Brock standing up
And we can lose to Brock on our back

 

[jeff7b9]

It's really amazing to me how many people are happy to display that they don't grasp how grappling positions work.


Have all the credentials you want and put a 300 pound monster NCAA D1 champ on top of you in side guard or full mount and you are FUCKED.

Name submissions or victories in mma that came from a guy who was mounted or in side guard... its has happened about 3 times ever, once via striking not in UFC.

Explain it to me like I'm 5

Are you putting your chips on

Werdum out grappling Brock from his back ?

or

werdum outwrestling Brock from the feet?




Name a submission from half guard bottom besides Mir Lock vs Pete Williams....

Position is everything.

Brock has the better skills to determine position by far.

Werdum could hurt him standing, could catch him in a sub on the way down (in some.positions) or could sub or sweep from some positions... most of those positions I would love to hear a rational explanation as to how they occur in favor of the guy with inferior size strengths and wrestling.



Werdum is smarter than you. He would.know he didn't have the wrestling and trying to sweep brock is a dumb bet
He would probably box / hit & run vs Brock.
Hurt Brock was put in bad positions by Cain, Carwin and Reem
Never clear headed offensive Brock.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

It's really amazing to me how many people are happy to display that they don't grasp how grappling positions work.


Have all the credentials you want and put a 300 pound monster NCAA D1 champ on top of you in side guard or full mount and you are FUCKED.

Name submissions or victories in mma that came from a guy who was mounted or in side guard... its has happened about 3 times ever, once via striking not in UFC.

you're unironically saying this while obviously never having grappled before lol.

Brock Lesnar isnt going to be able to just mount Werdum because he is a big wrestler. That isn't how grappling (or wrestling) works, and Brock Lesnar himself has hardly even done that to other fighters. A submission from the mount or side mount isn't required....Werdum would obviously work to his half guard or guard if he found himself mounted, which I doubt he would be.

Werdum is not Mir (who tapped out Lesnar), his ground game is way more complex and fundamentally sound. If you think Lesnar can just bull rush him and mount him, then you are totally clueless about how grappling works. That is a great way to get submitted.


As for the fight, Werdum would likely outstrike Lesnar and submit him after he made Lesnar panic or if he hurt him. I dont think Lesnar has a serious way of finishing Werdum.



This idea that Lesnar can just bullrush people and tko them is fan fiction.

 

[Ibm]

Werdum would outstrike or submit Brock. Werdume is the worst matchup for Brock imo. Horrifically bad. He was the best HW ever, and progressed very fast. He just had to "beat the Ovreen one more time" and he was probbaly th best MMA HW of all time. Look who he beat,

 

[jeff7b9]

you're unironically saying this while obviously never having grappled before lol.

Brock Lesnar isnt going to be able to just mount Werdum because he is a big wrestler. That isn't how grappling (or wrestling) works, and Brock Lesnar himself has hardly even done that to other fighters. A submission from the mount or side mount isn't required....Werdum would obviously work to his half guard or guard if he found himself mounted, which I doubt he would be.

Werdum is not Mir (who tapped out Lesnar), his ground game is way more complex and fundamentally sound. If you think Lesnar can just bull rush him and mount him, then you are totally clueless about how grappling works. That is a great way to get submitted.


As for the fight, Werdum would likely outstrike Lesnar and submit him after he made Lesnar panic or if he hurt him. I dont think Lesnar has a serious way of finishing Werdum.



This idea that Lesnar can just bullrush people and tko them is fan fiction.

Referring to things I didn't ever say isn't quite as clever a response as you think.

Show me where I said Brock would bull rush and tko...


Werdums strategy for dictating ground game:

 

[cblitz]

Bad matchup for Brock.

 

[Takes Two To Tango]

Brock would be choked out, unfortunately for him.