How western karate was hamstrung

[JohnPJones]

i recently read shihan roseberry’s book, and it’s a small mention, butit shows that a lot of karate was doomed to be useless in the western world/angloshere.

Mcdojoism was almost written into the DNA of western karateka.

In the 1950s the US occupiers instituted some sort of punch card system that paid Japanese dojo owners for training GIs stationed there. There aren’t details on how it worked, but it ended up resulting in US servicemen getting blackbelts in under a year in some cases just a few months.

It seems safe to assume that several of those people came back and opened schools and began teaching a system they had no actual understanding of.

That’s how western karate was severely hamstrung from the get go, and how kata became essentially useless and lost its meaning.

Not all instructors sold out their morals, but many did. (Can’t much blame them since I’m pretty sure the Japanese economy was a complete wreck at the time.)

 

[FighterTwister]

i recently read shihan roseberry’s book, and it’s a small mention, butit shows that a lot of karate was doomed to be useless in the western world/angloshere.

Mcdojoism was almost written into the DNA of western karateka.

In the 1950s the US occupiers instituted some sort of punch card system that paid Japanese dojo owners for training GIs stationed there. There aren’t details on how it worked, but it ended up resulting in US servicemen getting blackbelts in under a year in some cases just a few months.

It seems safe to assume that several of those people came back and opened schools and began teaching a system they had no actual understanding of.

That’s how western karate was severely hamstrung from the get go, and how kata became essentially useless and lost its meaning.

Not all instructors sold out their morals, but many did. (Can’t much blame them since I’m pretty sure the Japanese economy was a complete wreck at the time.)

Yes, good post, this is the view I like.

There is heaps of published material for good reading on this subject put out through the decades that are great for reading and referencing. To consider and keep many Martial Art systems alive, as to not forget or let them be lost into time warped or shadowed by poor modern interpretations of today's martial/combat sport arts.

The view is that the lost arts or core of many martial arts are not needed etc Kata's, Forms, Weaponry, Toughened Conditioning of hands and iron body training so on. As its taken that much of it is just over kill for today's sport application in a rule set format.

Those that practice Martial Arts traditionally, its all shown as a labor of love through demonstrations and drills hence the many YouTubes wearing uniforms and role play scenarios.

But for enthusiast and those that live this life its a forgotten discipline and fortitude in the act of pursuit of what is a Martial Artist.

People should still respect, honor and appreciate these arts from afar not cast them down.

But keep them alive, they were geniuses in the past, how they put it all together and so compact into Kata or Forms.

All the secrets are usually built into the KATA's / FORM's and the actual techniques and applications.

Also known as internal training and mastering.

Just got to have the patience to understand it and apply continuously as its a life style not a curriculum for a period of time, but a life long process and developmental path.

All the local gyms now are all about MMA or Combat Fitness.

All I have to do is drive around my local or surrounding areas for 1hr and there are at least 100 combat sport fitness centers with western MMA, Muay Thai and Boxing fitness plans.

When back in the 80's there were heaps of places one could learn Kung-Fu, Karate whatever founded Martial Art you liked there surely was a place teaching it.

The west did kill the arts in search for sport format applications.

This is where so much has been lost or misunderstood and confusion when people discuss the now differing from the past.

Many think we are nuts and poorly understand the subject altogether.

A sad truth but probably for the better considering the world today!



Link:- https://blackbeltwiki.com/benefits-of-kata

To me Martial Arts in the Chinese Arts are an amazing expression of skill and talent not what you do with it but what it is, in the life and practice of an individual respecting its past from afar!

 

[KarateStylist]

Yes, good post, this is the view I like.

There is heaps of published material for good reading on this subject put out through the decades that are great for reading and referencing. To consider and keep many Martial Art systems alive, as to not forget or let them be lost into time warped or shadowed by poor modern interpretations of today's martial/combat sport arts.

The view is that the lost arts or core of many martial arts are not needed etc Kata's, Forms, Weaponry, Toughened Conditioning of hands and iron body training so on. As its taken that much of it is just over kill for today's sport application in a rule set format.

Those that practice Martial Arts traditionally, its all shown as a labor of love through demonstrations and drills hence the many YouTubes wearing uniforms and role play scenarios.

But for enthusiast and those that live this life its a forgotten discipline and fortitude in the act of pursuit of what is a Martial Artist.

People should still respect, honor and appreciate these arts from afar not cast them down.

But keep them alive, they were geniuses in the past, how they put it all together and so compact into Kata or Forms.

All the secrets are usually built into the KATA's / FORM's and the actual techniques and applications.

Also known as internal training and mastering.

Just got to have the patience to understand it and apply continuously as its a life style not a curriculum for a period of time, but a life long process and developmental path.

All the local gyms now are all about MMA or Combat Fitness.

All I have to do is drive around my local or surrounding areas for 1hr and there are at least 100 combat sport fitness centers with western MMA, Muay Thai and Boxing fitness plans.

When back in the 80's there were heaps of places one could learn Kung-Fu, Karate whatever founded Martial Art you liked there surely was a place teaching it.

The west did kill the arts in search for sport format applications.

This is where so much has been lost or misunderstood and confusion when people discuss the now differing from the past.

Many think we are nuts and poorly understand the subject altogether.

A sad truth but probably for the better considering the world today!



Link:- https://blackbeltwiki.com/benefits-of-kata

To me Martial Arts in the Chinese Arts are an amazing expression of skill and talent not what you do with it but what it is, in the life and practice of an individual respecting its past from afar!

Why didn't you put this in the kata sciene thread? They got kyo kumite there instead.

p.s. That's my cousin, metaphorically speaking, in the video.

 

[KarateStylist]

MEDIA-link omiited

To me Martial Arts in the Chinese Arts are an amazing expression of skill and talent not what you do with it but what it is, in the life and practice of an individual respecting its past from afar!

BTW, this Shotokan instructor is very knowledgeable & well versed IMO; and go into such detail he bores the pants off of me.

I'm listening to a copy of myself!!!!

 

[SandisLL]

Really?
Funakoshi taught people to be humble and quiet.
You are nor polite, nor humble, nor quiet.
And I don't understand, why you insist on free sparrings usefulness because in my understanding Funakoshi had another opinions about sparrings than you personally have.

 

[KarateStylist]

Really?
Funakoshi taught people to be humble and quiet.
You are nor polite, nor humble, nor quiet.
And I don't understand, why you insist on free sparrings usefulness because in my understanding Funakoshi had another opinions about sparrings than you personally have.

Sandisl to teacher (Funakoshi) re KarateStylist. "Karate Stylist bad."

+1 brownie pt. for running to teacher.

 

[SandisLL]

Budo in first value is respect to others and YOU don't have it.

 

[KarateStylist]

i recently read shihan roseberry’s book, and it’s a small mention, butit shows that a lot of karate was doomed to be useless in the western world/angloshere.

I was originally gonna donk you for reading a book about karate. Not even I do that.

Then I read through your theme and the 1st reply. Shame on me.
My 2nd Dan Black Belt Test
153,131 views


Alex Wong
Published on Apr 22, 2018

The next contender that Jessica A. should place on her consider list. The thing about the traditional karates is that they are a journey to self improvement. How much one improves is always an open question. Becoming some badass like the stand-up forum claims is not on most karate practitioners list.

Shinchecker? himself has gone on record about appealing to the masses to keep the doors open & bring in a $bill or two. Karate as a business is no different. And just look at the continual stream of crap-talk MMA feeds off of. Carping for dollars.

Personally, I like this video because the young lady is profiting from her involvement. So what if she's a yellow belt (color for illustration only)?

 

[JohnPJones]

I was originally gonna donk you for reading a book about karate. Not even I do that.

Then I read through your theme and the 1st reply. Shame on me.
My 2nd Dan Black Belt Test
153,131 views


Alex Wong
Published on Apr 22, 2018

The next contender that Jessica A. should place on her consider list. The thing about the traditional karates is that they are a journey to self improvement. How much one improves is always an open question. Becoming some badass like the stand-up forum claims is not on most karate practitioners list.

Shinchecker? himself has gone on record about appealing to the masses to keep the doors open & bring in a $bill or two. Karate as a business is no different. And just look at the continual stream of crap-talk MMA feeds off of. Carping for dollars.

Personally, I like this video because the young lady is profiting from her involvement. So what if she's a yellow belt (color for illustration only)?

oh, you're functionally illiterate and are incapable of reading books...i'm sorry to hear that.

 

[KarateStylist]

oh, you're functionally illiterate and are incapable of reading books...i'm sorry to hear that.

Na, I substitute kata for being a warrior with words {laugh suppressed}.

No McDojo is safe with you around {clapping ever so softly}.

 

[BudoNoah]

i recently read shihan roseberry’s book, and it’s a small mention, butit shows that a lot of karate was doomed to be useless in the western world/angloshere.

Mcdojoism was almost written into the DNA of western karateka.

In the 1950s the US occupiers instituted some sort of punch card system that paid Japanese dojo owners for training GIs stationed there. There aren’t details on how it worked, but it ended up resulting in US servicemen getting blackbelts in under a year in some cases just a few months.

It seems safe to assume that several of those people came back and opened schools and began teaching a system they had no actual understanding of.

That’s how western karate was severely hamstrung from the get go, and how kata became essentially useless and lost its meaning.

Not all instructors sold out their morals, but many did. (Can’t much blame them since I’m pretty sure the Japanese economy was a complete wreck at the time.)

It wasn't just money--the military was giving out building supplies for people to rebuild homes and businesses, too. It was quite common for GIs to come back with black belts after a stint in Japan or Okinawa--sometimes even 2nd or 3rd degree black belts. And while there were several who were explicitly told to start teaching (along with plenty I'm sure did it of their own accord), they were also typically told they needed to come back fairly regularly for continued training, which didn't happen all that often. Of course, there had already been some watering down happening over there, too, thanks to the University version of karate that had become popular by then, and the elementary school version that became standardized 40+ years before.

 

[JohnPJones]

It wasn't just money--the military was giving out building supplies for people to rebuild homes and businesses, too. It was quite common for GIs to come back with black belts after a stint in Japan or Okinawa--sometimes even 2nd or 3rd degree black belts. And while there were several who were explicitly told to start teaching (along with plenty I'm sure did it of their own accord), they were also typically told they needed to come back fairly regularly for continued training, which didn't happen all that often. Of course, there had already been some watering down happening over there, too, thanks to the University version of karate that had become popular by then, and the elementary school version that became standardized 40+ years before.

thats interesting, and makes it more understandable why they'd sell out if it was money and supplies.

 

[KarateStylist]

Of course, there had already been some watering down happening over there, too, thanks to the University version of karate that had become popular by then, and the elementary school version that became standardized 40+ years before.

I can't find the Master (so to speak) who said; "it's not how much you know, it's how well you can do what you've learned." The perfect saying which applies to you.

The beauty in the elementary school version is it's elementary lessons. An Okinawan Master claimed that reference (not exact words). Do you know who that is?

 

[CFGroup]

Fighting arts were militarized by the nationalists during the war eliminating most of the "martial art" we understand for military drills and then outright banned in post war japan occupation. You ether had to put "do" after your art or go underground essentially. That's why you guys scoff at Japanese Jujitsu, because it was seen as too effective to be allowed in the general population. As that article states even the Kodokan had to de emphasis it's effective combat traditional roots for pure sport application.

I heard a lot of this third hand on trips to competitions and seminars from my teacher whose teacher immigrated. The people who teach the "real" Japanese martial art Judo and others ether leave-Maeda aka BJJ, Hirano of France-or those who chose to stay and go underground.

Ihttps://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_1202.htm

 

[KarateStylist]

Well, this was an interesting perspective on the issues with modern karate training through commercial outlets.

What's really hamstrung western karate is MMA, along with all it's financial & supporting resources.

 

[spacetime]

i recently read shihan roseberry’s book, and it’s a small mention, butit shows that a lot of karate was doomed to be useless in the western world/angloshere.

Mcdojoism was almost written into the DNA of western karateka.

In the 1950s the US occupiers instituted some sort of punch card system that paid Japanese dojo owners for training GIs stationed there. There aren’t details on how it worked, but it ended up resulting in US servicemen getting blackbelts in under a year in some cases just a few months.

It seems safe to assume that several of those people came back and opened schools and began teaching a system they had no actual understanding of.

That’s how western karate was severely hamstrung from the get go, and how kata became essentially useless and lost its meaning.

Not all instructors sold out their morals, but many did. (Can’t much blame them since I’m pretty sure the Japanese economy was a complete wreck at the time.)

Myth. The striking element was by and large the same. It's the reduced jiujitsu that is the so called "deadly stuff" that was not passed on, which doesn't matter since you should study under someone who actually knows what he is doing with that shit, not a striker.

So by and large no, karate was not some deadly art that got watered down.

 

[KarateStylist]

Myth. The striking element was by and large the same. It's the reduced jiujitsu that is the so called "deadly stuff" that was not passed on, which doesn't matter since you should study under someone who actually knows what he is doing with that shit, not a striker.

So by and large no, karate was not some deadly art that got watered down.

OMGawd, a karate advocate on an MMA board.

Actually, there is quite a gradation among the striking efficacy among the karate styles. They are not all trained the same, with the same emphasis.

On the broadest plane, you are correct. Thought you'd be glad to have that confirmed.

 

[spacetime]

OMGawd, a karate advocate on an MMA board.

no.. it was never deadly to begin with

 

[KarateStylist]

no.. it was never deadly to begin with

Don't kid a kidder, I guess....

 

[shinkyoku]

It wasn't just money--the military was giving out building supplies for people to rebuild homes and businesses, too. It was quite common for GIs to come back with black belts after a stint in Japan or Okinawa--sometimes even 2nd or 3rd degree black belts. And while there were several who were explicitly told to start teaching (along with plenty I'm sure did it of their own accord), they were also typically told they needed to come back fairly regularly for continued training, which didn't happen all that often. Of course, there had already been some watering down happening over there, too, thanks to the University version of karate that had become popular by then, and the elementary school version that became standardized 40+ years before.

There is also that traditionally, the 1-on-1 in-depth instructions was taught early in the morning, while evening classes was more focused on larger groups (basically the walk up and down in a line we all know today) with very little individual instruction.
Based on my stint in the army, I think the GI´s probably attended more evening classes than morning classes.
And the fact that the vast bulk of skilled firebrand karateka was killed in the war, as they tended to be fanatics and joined the war. What was left was mostly the old guys and newbies. Even legends like Chojun Miyagi of Goju ryu was a broken man after the war, and was rumoured to have gone a little bit odd.
Seriously, does anyone really think the Japanese was eager to teach their skills to their conquerors? Especially on Okinawa after the battle of okinawa, where a staggering half of the civilians (not japanese military personnel) on the island was killed or injured.