How tough was this tournament?

Yes, lots of talent out there, but tourney winners are often not the best.. way to find them, just the best on that day or the only one who stayed healthy though it. Fact is some fighters take several losses before they find what works for them.
 
Some of these results can be deceiving. I dont remember which fight it was but Shavkat lost under amateur rules vs a guy he probably would finish in the cage under UFC rules. It was in a ring and his opponent barely did any damage or was threatening a finish.

His style would not work in a different ruleset in a cage the way it did in the ring. That is why it is always important to watch the fights rather than just look at the results.
 
smiles mma said:
Wmmaa 2014 tournament
Shavkat and ankalaev both lost.

Lot of talent out there.
Click to expand...

The amount of talent in Russia amateur tournaments varies a ton. Sometimes "Sambo" tournaments are just amateur MMA too at this point. Like when Islam and Zabit fought. Ankalaev also beat Moldavsky in a similar amateur fight. Magomed Umalatov lost to Berkhamov, Kuramagomedov and Azamat Bekoev in different Russian amateur MMA tournaments. It's pretty stacked sometimes, other times they are crushing cans. I think a lot of guys with Sambo, Pankration, Sanda, Kudo, Hand to Hand Combat etc. Backgrounds often go into amateur MMA in Russia but a lot of those guys end up never fighting professionally. If you don't know who Kuramagomedov is he's the Bellator champ, MuKhamed Berkhamov is a 17-2 Bellator/PFL fighter and Bekoev is a former ACA and Current LFA 18-3 Pro mma fighter.
 
GreenGorilla said:
Some of these results can be deceiving. I dont remember which fight it was but Shavkat lost under amateur rules vs a guy he probably would finish in the cage under UFC rules. It was in a ring and his opponent barely did any damage or was threatening a finish.

His style would not work in a different ruleset in a cage the way it did in the ring. That is why it is always important to watch the fights rather than just look at the results.
Click to expand...

Amateur fights are different rule sets and guys are often fighting multiple times in a week or even a single day. Plus Shavkat had dodgy defensive wrestling when young and it's improved a lot, Dar got an Ossetian wrestling coach who was the head of the Cadet and U23 Kazakh national teams and he's taken Shavkat to train with multiple Olympic medalists in Russia on multiple occasions now, plus Shavkat cross trains at Killcliff. The point of taking amateur fights and getting that experience is figuring out what needs to be improved, sorting out your own game relative to all different kinds of opponents. It's a little weird in Russia guys will compete amateur while being pro but it's what they do. Quite a few guys who are undefeated have Sambo or amateur MMA losses. I think when Islam lost to Ali Bagov in Sambo he was already pro.
 
HuskySamoan said:
Amateur fights are different rule sets and guys are often fighting multiple times in a week or even a single day. Plus Shavkat had dodgy defensive wrestling when young and it's improved a lot, Dar got an Ossetian wrestling coach who was the head of the Cadet and U23 Kazakh national teams and he's taken Shavkat to train with multiple Olympic medalists in Russia on multiple occasions now, plus Shavkat cross trains at Killcliff. The point of taking amateur fights and getting that experience is figuring out what needs to be improved, sorting out your own game relative to all different kinds of opponents. It's a little weird in Russia guys will compete amateur while being pro but it's what they do. Quite a few guys who are undefeated have Sambo or amateur MMA losses. I think when Islam lost to Ali Bagov in Sambo he was already pro.
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It was not meant to be say it is bad to lose in the amateurs, rather to emphasize that the fight was not what most people would expect when they see it.
It is the same in boxing, amateur rules favour different things than pro fights. (obviously the amount of rounds but that is just boxing vs MMA in general ) Shavkat lost the fight but the other guy looked completely spent afterwards. With the cage and more space his style would not have worked is my point. It is very obvious looking at the fight Shavkat was still very green.

I think fighting amateur while already being a pro should not be looked at as weird. The golden 0 everyone chases annoys me to no end. Losing a fight can do more good to a career than winning a rather easy one while having major deficits.
 
GreenGorilla said:
It was not meant to be say it is bad to lose in the amateurs, rather to emphasize that the fight was not what most people would expect when they see it.
It is the same in boxing, amateur rules favour different things than pro fights. (obviously the amount of rounds but that is just boxing vs MMA in general ) Shavkat lost the fight but the other guy looked completely spent afterwards. With the cage and more space his style would not have worked is my point. It is very obvious looking at the fight Shavkat was still very green.

I think fighting amateur while already being a pro should not be looked at as weird. The golden 0 everyone chases annoys me to no end. Losing a fight can do more good to a career than winning a rather easy one while having major deficits.
Click to expand...

I think fighting amateur while being pro is kinda weird and defeats the purpose a bit. And I'm aware of what you're saying, in boxing, amateur boxing favors volume over quality, body shots are not as relevant because 3-4 rounds to break down the body just isn't the same as 8-10-12. It's also more of a sprint in general, but these small differences and some big differences change the complexion a lot, it's kinda a different sport.
 
HuskySamoan said:
I think fighting amateur while being pro is kinda weird and defeats the purpose a bit. And I'm aware of what you're saying, in boxing, amateur boxing favors volume over quality, body shots are not as relevant because 3-4 rounds to break down the body just isn't the same as 8-10-12. It's also more of a sprint in general, but these small differences and some big differences change the complexion a lot, it's kinda a different sport.
Click to expand...
Definitely it changes the game completely the gameplan that was deployed vs Shavkat would never work as well. It changes the whole dynamic of the fight.

I think it is bad when it is done by people that are already elite, like Jalolov at the Olympics but I don't think it is that bad when it is done by pros with little fights. Although maybe MMA differs from Boxing in this regard because generally people that go directly pro usually are not as technically sound or talented as people with a great amateur degree. Amateur MMA is a weird thing truly, but representative of the all over the place chaos that always has plagued MMA.
 
GreenGorilla said:
Definitely it changes the game completely the gameplan that was deployed vs Shavkat would never work as well. It changes the whole dynamic of the fight.

I think it is bad when it is done by people that are already elite, like Jalolov at the Olympics but I don't think it is that bad when it is done by pros with little fights. Although maybe MMA differs from Boxing in this regard because generally people that go directly pro usually are not as technically sound or talented as people with a great amateur degree. Amateur MMA is a weird thing truly, but representative of the all over the place chaos that always has plagued MMA.
Click to expand...

It's changing, when I fought amateur back in 2011-2014, I had to wait until I turned 18...they didn't allow amateur fighting in most US states for MMA under 18. A few years after that, the regions I fought in began to find loopholes like "mixed rules bouts" kids could do so they'd do 1 round boxing, 1 round submission grappling and 1 round kicking on. That was for 15-17, also sometimes kickboxing was allowed for kids and sometimes it wasn't, I'm not sure why...this shit was either not sanctioned at Native American casinos or it was....very vaguely only kinda sanctioned. And amateur MMA was such a wild west and maybe it still is but you'd have a 38 year old construction worker who "did karate twenty, thirty years ago" vs some 25 year old who cut 20lbs and trained out of ATT with a collegiate wrestling background fight. My first amateur fight when turned 18 was against a 14-4 Pro kickboxer who coached at a south Florida gym that was transitioning into MMA.

So historically, amateur Mma was kinda dangerous, largely untested or limited testing...very limited and you couldn't do it in a lot of places until 18...when you could just fight pro anyways. Also historically MMA fighters came to the sport in adulthood or near adulthood from some other athletic or combat background. It's only recently amateur MMA and even pro MMA is accessible to minors and it's largely sanctioned now, even taking place on pro cards commonly. There's also the IMMAF regionals/Nationals, National MMA tournaments, GAMMA etc. You saw some of the first gen amateur fighters like Arnold Allen and Max Holloway who were competing at around 15 in MMA and kickboxing, you'd have guys like Aldo and Rory who began pro around 16 (Brazil has had a lot of guys like Pantoja and Oliveira who I think began around 17 too). The amateur system and the accessibility for men who are like 14 and up to compete now is huge for the sport, the popularity and growth of MMA and state of the art gyms being more ubiquitous is also huge. Give it like another decade, I'd say within 3 olympics it will make into one. I also think the standard ot athlete and skills is growing a ton as is the need to get into the sport early. That said, the UFC is very biased towards and against certain nationalities, styles and such plus their precedent for skill, accomplishment and potential is very poor...the UFC being the NFL of the sport will hold it back, along with poor pay.

But yeah, in the last 15 years the growth in the amateurs MMA system international has been astounding to me.
 
HuskySamoan said:
It's changing, when I fought amateur back in 2011-2014, I had to wait until I turned 18...they didn't allow amateur fighting in most US states for MMA under 18. A few years after that, the regions I fought in began to find loopholes like "mixed rules bouts" kids could do so they'd do 1 round boxing, 1 round submission grappling and 1 round kicking on. That was for 15-17, also sometimes kickboxing was allowed for kids and sometimes it wasn't, I'm not sure why...this shit was either not sanctioned at Native American casinos or it was....very vaguely only kinda sanctioned. And amateur MMA was such a wild west and maybe it still is but you'd have a 38 year old construction worker who "did karate twenty, thirty years ago" vs some 25 year old who cut 20lbs and trained out of ATT with a collegiate wrestling background fight. My first amateur fight when turned 18 was against a 14-4 Pro kickboxer who coached at a south Florida gym that was transitioning into MMA.

So historically, amateur Mma was kinda dangerous, largely untested or limited testing...very limited and you couldn't do it in a lot of places until 18...when you could just fight pro anyways. Also historically MMA fighters came to the sport in adulthood or near adulthood from some other athletic or combat background. It's only recently amateur MMA and even pro MMA is accessible to minors and it's largely sanctioned now, even taking place on pro cards commonly. There's also the IMMAF regionals/Nationals, National MMA tournaments, GAMMA etc. You saw some of the first gen amateur fighters like Arnold Allen and Max Holloway who were competing at around 15 in MMA and kickboxing, you'd have guys like Aldo and Rory who began pro around 16 (Brazil has had a lot of guys like Pantoja and Oliveira who I think began around 17 too). The amateur system and the accessibility for men who are like 14 and up to compete now is huge for the sport, the popularity and growth of MMA and state of the art gyms being more ubiquitous is also huge. Give it like another decade, I'd say within 3 olympics it will make into one. I also think the standard ot athlete and skills is growing a ton as is the need to get into the sport early. That said, the UFC is very biased towards and against certain nationalities, styles and such plus their precedent for skill, accomplishment and potential is very poor...the UFC being the NFL of the sport will hold it back, along with poor pay.

But yeah, in the last 15 years the growth in the amateurs MMA system international has been astounding to me.
Click to expand...
I believe it. The fact there is at least some sort of governing body is an huge leap from before. In Germany I remember the conditions in amateur were even worse than the conditions you describe. You would find people with 0 full contact fights winning regional or national titles from organizations nobody heard of ever. I imagine here in Germany they dont even test, you could probably turn up juiced to the gills and absolutely murder some lanky 20 something subway sandwich maker. There is hope for the future but honestly the global situation has a lot of bigger issues than MMA, so lets hope the world in general stabilizes a bit otherwise more investments in MMA seem unlikely.
 
HuskySamoan said:
It's changing, when I fought amateur back in 2011-2014, I had to wait until I turned 18...they didn't allow amateur fighting in most US states for MMA under 18. A few years after that, the regions I fought in began to find loopholes like "mixed rules bouts" kids could do so they'd do 1 round boxing, 1 round submission grappling and 1 round kicking on. That was for 15-17, also sometimes kickboxing was allowed for kids and sometimes it wasn't, I'm not sure why...this shit was either not sanctioned at Native American casinos or it was....very vaguely only kinda sanctioned. And amateur MMA was such a wild west and maybe it still is but you'd have a 38 year old construction worker who "did karate twenty, thirty years ago" vs some 25 year old who cut 20lbs and trained out of ATT with a collegiate wrestling background fight. My first amateur fight when turned 18 was against a 14-4 Pro kickboxer who coached at a south Florida gym that was transitioning into MMA.

So historically, amateur Mma was kinda dangerous, largely untested or limited testing...very limited and you couldn't do it in a lot of places until 18...when you could just fight pro anyways. Also historically MMA fighters came to the sport in adulthood or near adulthood from some other athletic or combat background. It's only recently amateur MMA and even pro MMA is accessible to minors and it's largely sanctioned now, even taking place on pro cards commonly. There's also the IMMAF regionals/Nationals, National MMA tournaments, GAMMA etc. You saw some of the first gen amateur fighters like Arnold Allen and Max Holloway who were competing at around 15 in MMA and kickboxing, you'd have guys like Aldo and Rory who began pro around 16 (Brazil has had a lot of guys like Pantoja and Oliveira who I think began around 17 too). The amateur system and the accessibility for men who are like 14 and up to compete now is huge for the sport, the popularity and growth of MMA and state of the art gyms being more ubiquitous is also huge. Give it like another decade, I'd say within 3 olympics it will make into one. I also think the standard ot athlete and skills is growing a ton as is the need to get into the sport early. That said, the UFC is very biased towards and against certain nationalities, styles and such plus their precedent for skill, accomplishment and potential is very poor...the UFC being the NFL of the sport will hold it back, along with poor pay.

But yeah, in the last 15 years the growth in the amateurs MMA system international has been astounding to me.
Click to expand...
Where did you fight amateur at ? I did in Michigan from '10-13 and one in '15. I wasn't any good but was such fan of the sport I was loving getting to try it for myself.
 
GreenGorilla said:
I believe it. The fact there is at least some sort of governing body is an huge leap from before. In Germany I remember the conditions in amateur were even worse than the conditions you describe. You would find people with 0 full contact fights winning regional or national titles from organizations nobody heard of ever. I imagine here in Germany they dont even test, you could probably turn up juiced to the gills and absolutely murder some lanky 20 something subway sandwich maker. There is hope for the future but honestly the global situation has a lot of bigger issues than MMA, so lets hope the world in general stabilizes a bit otherwise more investments in MMA seem unlikely.
Click to expand...

"some lanky 20 something subway sandwhich maker"

like this fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKpLPKaYRbY

well not so lanky in this case. reminds me of that classic Simpsons episode where Homer became a boxer and to build up his record his manager Moe the bartender had him fight a bunch of boxcar hobos who were fighting for sandwhiches
 
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