How to wash BJJ Gi?

[IQwrestler]

 

[trn450]

@Rod1

Despite the fact that you clearly have no idea what you're talking about and draw very illogical conclusions from what limited understanding of the medical sciences you do have, I'll come back tomorrow -- when I have time -- and let everyone see how stupid your arguments are.

I will address your stupid "breathing normal air" argument, however. Healthy people are LESS LIKELY to get sick than immunocompromised people. They are NOT insusceptible to illness! So, by increasing the number of potential pathogens that a healthy person is exposed to you are increasing the risk of infection, healthy or immunocompromised. And, when they do get sick it's usually mild, as opposed to the immunocompromised person who may experience a life-threatening infection.

This isn't a binary yes or no issue. It's a multi-factorial sliding scale.

My argument is simple: Not washing your gi after use increases your risk for acquiring an infection. I honestly have no idea how you can even attempt to refute that, but I'll prove it to you tomorrow.

And, one more time now: "LOL" @ you for thinking the US National Institute of Health wouldn't rely on scientific data. WTF is wrong with you, man?

 

[trn450]

Even TKD has some sort of contact betweem sharing gloves, sweat vaporization, drills etc etc.

Plus that's what we heard, that all the TKD team had herpes.

OMFG... I'm re-thinking my promise to come back tomorrow. If you're going to put "sweat vaporization" down as a possible mode of transmission for the herpes family of viruses between a whole group of TKD team members, you're seriously not worth my time. The only way I'd accept they got it without homosexual interactions is if it was oral HSV-1 and they commonly shared drinks or something of that nature. But, most people don't make a big deal out of cold sores, so I am assuming you're speaking of genital herpes.

 

[Rod1]

OMFG... I'm re-thinking my promise to come back tomorrow. If you're going to put "sweat vaporization" down as a possible mode of transmission for the herpes family of viruses between a whole group of TKD team members, you're seriously not worth my time. The only way I'd accept they got it without homosexual interactions is if it was oral HSV-1 and they commonly shared drinks or something of that nature. But, most people don't make a big deal out of cold sores, so I am assuming you're speaking of genital herpes.

Ok nice, so you also proved one point that not washing gi isnt a possible herpes transmission vector as it cant survive outside of the body.

Again, you still want me to prove a negative which is on your side but here it is.

Risk factors for becoming a carrier include active infection during the sporting season, history of head and neck tinea infection, failure to wear headgear and failure to wash practice clothes at least once a week.20

OUTBREAK OF TINEA GLADIATORUM IN WRESTLERS IN TEHRAN (IRAN)

Notice how they dont mention every day or every single practice. This was an actual survey where they matched questionary questions against people who were carriers or not.

This is the actual link to the article that talks about judogis (as i said its japanese) sadly im currently without access to a scientific library, but im guessing you will be kind enough to get it for us so we can discuss the methodology right?

A nationwide survey of Trichophyton tonsurans infe... [J Am Acad Dermatol. 2006] - PubMed result

There i proved a negative, a logical fallacy, now you go and prove me that a Judogi with proper care has more pathogens than a judogi during mid-practice. Or that wearing a judogi that its properly dried after 1 week increases the chances of getting disease than vs grappling.

And, one more time now: "LOL" @ you for thinking the US National Institute of Health wouldn't rely on scientific data. WTF is wrong with you, man?

These guidelines are more political than scientifical in nature, i thought you knew about it but meh.

They have to cover their asses so they give you a policy as if you were going to work in a pharmaceutical company, if someone is 99.99% secure then 1 out of 10,000 is going to sue your ass. So they have to go the distance.

 

[trn450]

Did I ever refer to herpes other than to refute your silly idea about "vapor spread"? I spoke of staph, strep, and dermatophyte fungi... the big ones.

Although, technically, if you're grappling with someone that has a cold sore you could concievable get herpes (e.g. herpetic whitlow), it's not the basis of concern for grapplers and it's very rarely dangerous to ones life!

Man... I'm starting to think that when I dig through literature tomorrow and provide proof you either (a) won't understand it, or (b) will continue to ask for impossibly specific criteria (which, IMO, goes back to 'a'). This is probably going to be a huge waste of my time.

 

[Rod1]

OMFG... I'm re-thinking my promise to come back tomorrow. If you're going to put "sweat vaporization" down as a possible mode of transmission for the herpes family of viruses between a whole group of TKD team members, you're seriously not worth my time. The only way I'd accept they got it without homosexual interactions is if it was oral HSV-1 and they commonly shared drinks or something of that nature. But, most people don't make a big deal out of cold sores, so I am assuming you're speaking of genital herpes.

Most likely, and an university team is both male and female, so im guessing it probably has to do with sexuality or it wasnt really herpes.

Still why deviate from the point at hand? this is a red herring trying to point out my lack of knowledge about the specifics of a disease to the fact that you are basically basing your argument on lack of evidence and asking to prove a negative.

So sure, i proved that the gis are not a factor as long as they are washed at least once a week, now you prove to me that God doesnt exists.

 

[Rod1]

Did I ever refer to herpes other than to refute your silly idea about "vapor spread"? I spoke of staph, strep, and fungi... the big ones.

Although, technically, if you're grappling with someone that has a cold sore you could concievable get herpes (e.g. herpetic whitlow), it's not the basis of concern for grapplers and it's very rarely dangerous to ones life!

Man... I'm starting to think that when I dig through literature tomorrow and provide proof you either (a) won't understand it, or (b) will continue to ask for impossibly specific criteria (which, IMO, goes back to 'a'). This is probably going to be a huge waste of my time.

Go ahead, i doubt you will get anything solid, as much you would get enough literature to warrant an investigation as opposed to the literature that i presented which is specific.

What are you going to bring that resembles anything close to what we are discussing at hand? that overrides what i posted?

So yeah, its a waste of freaking time, since the beggining. American doctors why dont you learn from the vast amount of engineers, who BTW are still number 1 in the world.

 

[trn450]

What can I prove? A gi (cotton) is a fomite capable of harboring potentially pathogenic disease, washing and other forms of sanitation reduce infectious loads, being exposed to higher infectious loads puts you at more risk, etc. In short, I can prove that it is best to err in the side of caution with regard to washing your damn gi.

And, I'm not understanding what your engineer comment is supposed to mean. Are you suggesting physicians learn medicine from engineers? o_0 lol. And, if you're referring to research, physicians typically aren't at the fore-front of research, they utilize research from "researchers" and base medical care upon the findings of researchers. That's the reason medical workers wash their damn clothes and try to remain sanitary... o_0 ... it's not some wives tale, there is countless evidence which supports the health benefits of being sanitary.

I can't even believe I'm having this argument. Why the hell am I arguing with someone about the health benefits of being sanitary vs. being a dirt-bag?

Did I just get mega-trolled, or something?

 

[codemonkey76]

best troll eva, nice work Rod1

 

[trn450]

best troll eva, nice work Rod1

No kidding. Even I need to step back and congratulate him. I got pwned.

 

[Rod1]

What can I prove? A gi (cotton) is a fomite capable of harboring potentially pathogenic disease, washing and other forms of sanitation reduce infectious loads, being exposed to higher infectious loads puts you at more risk, etc. In short, I can prove that it is best to err in the side of caution with regard to washing your damn gi.

Which is entirely a potentially causative agent, but not a deciding agent.

I provided FUCKING EVIDENCE, that more than once a week was the breaking point in a survey yet you ignore that.

The point is whether that bacteria present in gi is enough to present a reasonable risk to someone when properly treated.

Its like mercury in tuna, Tuna has a toxic bioaccumulable form of mercury, yet we have something called the least observable effect dosage, which is the dosage at which mercury in Tuna doesnt shows any toxic effects.

Yes, you can argue that any mercury is bad and that such mercury could cause potentially fatal disease at those low levels 1 molecule of toxic mercury can damage the DNA of a cell and make it carcinogenic, but its pointless to go theorical when the observable effects are not representative of your argument.

As i pointed out there is no evidence that proves otherwise, as you know or pretend to know

NULL HYPOTHESIS DO NOT NEED TO BE PROVEN, THEY ARE THE FUCKING NULL HYPOTHESIS

You kept trolling that since its "obvious" that not washing gi over each sessions is dangerous, that i had to prove the null hypothesis

I DID

And now you call me troll and tell me that PRACTICE is wrong because of unproven theory? WTF are you on?

And, I'm not understanding what your engineer comment is supposed to mean. Are you suggesting physicians learn medicine from engineers? o_0 lol. And, if you're referring to research, physicians typically aren't at the fore-front of research, they utilize research from "researchers" and base medical care upon the findings of researchers. That's the reason medical workers wash their damn clothes and try to remain sanitary... o_0 ... it's not some wives tale, there is countless evidence which supports the health benefits of being sanitary.

Again, the sanitation required for a surgical operation is not the same.

I can't even believe I'm having this argument. Why the hell am I arguing with someone about the health benefits of being sanitary vs. being a dirt-bag?

Again, you are basing this in cultural aspects, its drinking urine being a dirtbag?

Ill make a little example of this

Subject A

washes hands after handling shit, eats the shit

Subject B

doesnt washes hands after handling shit, eats the shit.


Sure not washing hands its unhygienic, but they are eating shit anyway so they are bound to have the same diseases. In the same case both men are still sweating and making the gi dirty, if i start with a "dirty" (we still have not determined if bacteria thrives in a gi when properly taken care of) and you start with a clean one, after one roll with a random guy we are covered in sweat of said random sick guy, we are exposed to dangerous concentrations of pathogens from that same guy.

You are arguing a red herring, you are comparing scenarios where a single CFU is the same as potentially dangerous concentrations of pathogens, pretty fucking much everything carries at least 1 CFU of many diseases. Does that makes a difference? who the F knows, i know a fucking study knows a study like the one i linked.

Did I just get mega-trolled, or something?

So

Your argument

1.- I am a doctor i know more (dermatologist? epidemiologist?)
2.- I dont need evidence because its logical (Logical in theory)
3.- You have to prove a negative (because you are above the scientific method)
4.- Your evidence is invalid because i say so (lol?)

Sure man, you have a great career ahead, I cant wait to see how you defend your PhD,

"Yes sirs, here is the theorical basis, i omitted the whole methodology and results because this is so obvious it must be true".

 

[Rod1]

Again also what its the breaking point if i roll 6 hours straigth and i roll 1 hour spread over a week, does the gi is more or less dirty? does the gi gets dirtier between sessions? do bacteria proliferate? If so what its the breaking point?

 

[BakedBrotato]

My guess is Rod1 is a stinky motherfucker.

 

[trn450]

@Troll

I already told you, I'll get back to you with "evidence" tomorrow. I'm busy studying right now and I can't be burning through research databases simply for the sake of convincing a troll that there are benefits to personal hygiene, both for the individual and the community.

A few small points:

- People in hospitals are encouraged to have sanitary practices at all times! NOT just sterilizing before a surgery. I don't know wtf you are yapping about there.

- Potentially causative is very important! You don't repeatedly do potentially hazardous things and then wonder why you fell victim, do you? What a stupid argument. I never said you're guaranteed of anything. I kept speaking in terms of probability and exposure.

- WTF are you talking about when you say the person who washes their hands eats their shit just the same as the person who doesn't? Sure, there may be a few gut flora on the hygienic person, but it will be significantly less. And, there are is a directly relationship between number of innoculating organisms and probability of infection. I.e. eating a turd sandwhich is quite different from risidulual intestinal flora after a good hand-washing.

- EDIT: and your "breaking point" obsession is effing stupid. If you eat 10,000 virulent GI pathogens as opposed to 9,999 do you think that the one extra would be a "breaking point" where all of a sudden you get sick? It doesn't work that way...

My guess is Rod1 is a stinky motherfucker.

QFT

 

[Rod1]

@Troll

I already told you, I'll get back to you with "evidence" tomorrow. I'm busy studying right now and I can't be burning through research databases simply for the sake of convincing a troll that there are benefits to personal hygiene, both for the individual and the community.

A few small points:

- People in hospitals stay are encouraged to have sanitary practices at all times! NOT just sterilizing before a surgery. I don't know wtf you are yapping about there.

Again, immuno compromised individuals.

- Potentially causative is very important! You don't repeatedly do potentially hazardous things and then wonder why you fell victim, do you? What a stupid argument. I never said you're guaranteed of anything. I kept speaking in terms of probability and exposure.

Again, at what level and specially considering the already precarious condition of grappling.

- WTF are you talking about when you say the person who washes their hands eats their shit just the same as the person who doesn't? Sure, there may be a few gut flora on the hygienic person, but it will be significantly less. And, there are is a directly relationship between number of innoculating organisms and probability of infection. I.e. eating a turd sandwhich is quite different from risidulual intestinal flora after a good hand-washing.

You are still rolling with potentially sick people and having skin contact with them, the gi may or may not be an aggravating factor.

- EDIT: and your "breaking point" obsession is effing stupid. If you eat 10,000 virulent GI pathogens as opposed to 9,999 do you think that the one extra would be a "breaking point" where all of a sudden you get sick? It doesn't work that way...

I mean when is a judogi considered "dangerous", after how many hours of rolling should be deem a judogi a "potential causative".

I mean unless you are saying that bacteria can thrive in judogis meaning that a CFU will grow to potentially dangerous level. Like in the food industry people care about hygiene mainly because they can grow to potentially dangerous level in the shelves and thus lowering shelf life, not because a small amount of bacteria may deem food as potential poison.

You are saying that if i roll 1 hour, stop dry my gi and then roll tomorrow, my gi will be "dirtier" than if i rolled 1 hour, stopped 5 minutes and rolled another hour instead?

How many time does it has to happen to be considered separate sessions? how many times it had to be to consider a judogi dirty?

Those are the answers you dont know, and you are not willing to research, you will probably post a dime a dozen manual on good lab/food/hospital practices. Kudos to you, but if hugging, humping and rubbing men, the gi is the last place i would get a disease from them.

 

[Rod1]

QFT

Yes i am a troll, yet you are the one calling personal insults? hilarous

But oh well.

I am rubber you are glue... Yeah got to love the level of professionalism of good American doctors. No wonder why the USA is at the end stick of the developed world when it comes to healthcare.

 

[trn450]

- Not everyone in the hospital is immunocompromised.
- Any level higher than necessary (e.g. unwashed); there is no magic tipping point. If someone was infected, it could have been from a dirty gi or a clean gi (or the mat, the persons skin, etc, etc.). We're just trying to "minimize" probability here, and keeping a clean gi is one contibuting factor toward that goal. Same goes with cleaning a mat, staying showered, etc.
- Anything that can harbor infectious microorganisms is a possible source of infection. The more organisms it harbors, the more likely it is. If you've got an unwashed gi, that's an unecessary potential source of infection.
- No, I didn't say it would be dirtier. I said it's silly not to wash it in between sessions. Certainly if you roll 5 hrs you'll have picked up more bugs than in 1 hr. However, regardless of the number of hours you rolled you should wash between uses so that you don't accumulate potentially pathogenic organisms. It's very simple. Why do we have to have a specific criteria by which we can officially label your dirty ass gi biohazardous material? That's ridiculous... just wash the damn thing! And, while a clean gi may be an unlikely place to pickup an infectious agent, a dirty one is a likely place. It's silly.

Sorry if I was rude, but ignorance frustrates me.

And, the US doesn't have poor healthcare. The argument is in our delivery system. Many people are angry it's not socialist enough. Our quality of care is amazing. The only stats that show otherwise are ridiculous stats like infant mortality. Unfortunately, countries report their own infant mortality rates. And, they all have their own unique criteria for what constitutes and infant mortality. We try to save everyrhing and consider it all an infant mortality, whereas some countries will not consider something an infant mortality unless the child failed to live over 1 week! As you can see, that will lead to obviously skewed data. So, our poor infant mortality rate is really the result of us working harder to save babies and being more honest with what we report.

 

[Rod1]

- Not everyone in the hospital is immunocompromised.
- Any level higher than necessary (e.g. unwashed); there is no magic tipping point. If someone was infected, it could have been from a dirty gi or a clean gi (or the mat, the persons skin, etc, etc.). We're just trying to "minimize" probability here, and keeping a clean gi is one contibuting factor toward that goal. Same goes with cleaning a mat, staying showered, etc.

Or not grappling at all.

- Anything that can harbor infectious microorganisms is a possible source of infection. The more organisms it harbors, the more likely it is. If you've got an unwashed gi, that's an unecessary potential source of infection.

Washing a gi when you practice all days, work and/or study on the same time is more than unecessary when that potential danger is not statistically significant.

Not living in a bubble is also an unecessary risk i guess.

- No, I didn't say it would be dirtier. I said it's silly not to wash it in between sessions. Certainly if you roll 5 hrs you'll have picked up more bugs than in 1 hr.

Sorry but taking away years of use of a gi because an statistically insignificant risk is not unecessary.

However, regardless of the number of hours you rolled you should wash between uses so that you don't accumulate potentially pathogenic organisms. It's very simple.

Its not that simple, every wash takes away the life of a gi, and for some people its a big amount of work and/or cash to simply load the washing for every single gi, when hang drying a sweaty gi wont statistically increase the dangers of getting a disease.

Why do we have to have a specific criteria by which we can officially label your dirty ass gi biohazardous material? That's ridiculous... just wash the damn thing! And, while a clean gi may be an unlikely place to pickup an infectious agent, a dirty one is a likely place. It's silly.

Again, how much does a gi stays clean? by finishing warmup i would have already grappled with as much as 3 guys and its dripping in sweat, so what's the difference there?

And, the US doesn't have poor healthcare. The argument is in our delivery system. Many people are angry it's not socialist enough. Our quality of care is amazing. The only stats that show otherwise are ridiculous stats like infant mortality.
Unfortunately, countries report their own infant mortality rates. And, they all have their own unique criteria for what constitutes and infant mortality. We try to save everyrhing and consider it all an infant mortality, whereas some countries will not consider something an infant mortality unless the child failed to live over 1 week! As you can see, that will lead to obviously skewed data. So, our poor infant mortality rate is really the result of us working harder to save babies and being more honest with what we report.

Maybe if people werent so eager to sue for malpractice costs would be cheaper.

Keep your ignorant statements to yourself. I'm not telling you how things are in environmental science... so, don't pretend you're some authority in my realm.

Epidemiologist? Dermatologist?

Again you talk as if medicine was the only branch that worked with bugs, you work with bugs in controlled enviroments, other people also work with bugs, do you know how to properly sanitize a pig farm, a slaughterhouse, a meat processing facility and the delivery up to your fridge? that's IMO much harder than sanitizing a hospital where everything is more tightly controlled.

In my field i have worked with bugs, mainly soil, but in my field we work specially with statistics and risk/reward ratios, and complex systems.

Your analisys is so simple, disinfected judogi vs used judogi (dirty and clean are arbitrary) you may see a logical and simple conclusion which may or may not be true, because of practicity. But in a real uncontrolled enviroment things go awry, as you pointed out defense soap kills good bacteria so it actually increases the chance of getting a disease, this you know now, but before many "Doctors" would swear their lives upon defense soap.

That's also why i like epidemiologists, you know the guys that have to determine how diseases spread in the REAL uncontrolled enviroment. Like the guys that wrote the article i linked to.

Now we are not arguing ad hominems because i brought evidence you are not arguing what i am saying, you are arguing against

Shiraki Y, Hiruma M, Hirose N, Sugita T, Ikeda S.

Department of Dermatology, Juntendo University School of Medicine, Tokyo, Japan. [email protected]

Who found out that once a week was the breaking point where it became statistically significant.

You could even had followed the full article i pointed out, the iranian one where they recommen DAILY washing the equipment and prove me wrong with it (although there is no evidence its on discussion of results)

How about we act civil and leave the ego at home, i mean i stopped using an ad hominem at the moment i knew i had an educated person in front, you didnt, your whole argument is ad hominen, argumentum ad ignorantia, and the good practices of food/lab/hospital.

If you want to be civil then start researching, there is a WORLD of information on sports and disease, use google scholar and bring what you want or can, if you dont, then stop being uncivil, where i train people dont mind about dogis unless they smell because we are hard pressed as it is, there are tons of full time students that are also competitors and handwash because they dont have washing machines, ever tried handwashing a thick double weave? that its not drying in a day, you can be certain of it.

 

[shootermcgavin7]

Everytime I read Rod's posts I throw up a little bit in my mouth.

For the record, Rod, your null hypothesis rant means that someone has set up an appropriate empirical or experimental study and failed to find any statistical relation between hideous hygiene and grappling infections. Please use the null hypothesis rant in the proper context, and not to support any half-cocked bullshit any internet warrior invents off the top of his or her head. I am tired of seeing internet trolls spew irrational crap and hide behind an empirical term when no empirical study exists.

 

[Rod1]

Everytime I read Rod's posts I throw up a little bit in my mouth.

For the record, Rod, your null hypothesis rant means that someone has set up an appropriate empirical or experimental study and failed to find any statistical relation between hideous hygiene and grappling infections.

Actually no, a null hypothesis is true until its disproven, proving a negative is the most fallacious and one of the worst mistakes of science, you cant take anything for granted in science, even if it looks certain, it may not. That's why null hypothesis are always a negative. That's like saying guilty until proven otherwise.

Please use the null hypothesis rant in the proper context, and not to support any half-cocked bullshit any internet warrior invents off the top of his or her head. I am tired of seeing internet trolls spew irrational crap and hide behind an empirical term when no empirical study exists.

Again, I provided evidence from a team of dermatologist on an epidemiological study that showed that it took at least once week for a gi to be statistically significant in the spreading of a disease.

Lovely to talk about trolls.

"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion"

Sorry but neither am i posting off-topic or posting in order to bring an emotional response.

However your post does completely fits into the category, it adds nothing, its completely off-topic and its aimed at pissing me off.

Anyway go back, re-read find the epidemiological article by the japanese dermatologist and tell me it doesnt applies, or that they are trolling.