How Much Force To Break Bones

[Dougall]

How much force does it really take to "finish" submissions ? I'm not looking for an exact numerical figure but rather, can the regular person generate enough force to push submissions to breaking point?
Id assume the order of force required would be something like this;
Small Joints (Wrists, Fingers, Toes) : Easily broken, not alot of force required and muscle can make up for technique
Larger Joints (Elbows, Knees, Ankles): Substantial force required, good technique also needed
Solid Bones and Shoulders? : I think attacking solid bones in submissions, like calf slicers and bicep crush would require the most force as it is solid with no point of failure(a joint)
But could the average person push say, a kimura for example, to break the humerus? I know Mir did it but mir isnt the average guy. Ive also saw videos of forearms snapping in bicep slicers, but at the same time ive saw numerous videos of street fights where guys are really pushing armbars, or kimuras and even leg locks and
they just cant get the break despite trying desperately for it.
Are some submissions easier to hit breaking point with than others? If so which ones are most efficient and easiest to finish. I know Marcelo Garcia has mentioned not being a fan of certain techniques which he believes only work for stronger people.
How do you practitioners on sherdog feel about this? Do you feel like you could break a limb with a submission of you needed to ?

 

[Was at Pride GP 2000]

If a yout be video show a guy pulling an arm as hard as he can and it's not breaking he's doing it wrong.

If the technique is good it's easy

 

[EGDM]

I'd list shoulders only slightly above small joints. They're really fragile and terribly designed from an engineering perspective. As soon as you get them outside of the expected range of motion they totally disintegrate. In the case of Mir, he broke Nog's humerous because Nog's own muscular strength was sufficient to transmit the force of Mir's torque away from his shoulder into his bones. Mir would have torn a lesser athlete's shoulder out of socket.

As far as other submissions not working, it's either because 1) the technique is done badly or 2) it actually is working and the guy just doesn't care. You see #2 a lot in BJJ with leg locks. They'll say "it just popped my knee", which is tough guy code for "they only partially ruptured my ligaments and cartilage".

 

[BJ@LW&WW]

bicep and calf slicers target the elbow and knee, respectively as well, and it really doesn't take much force. if those joints dont give before a bone breaks, it's probably not being applied very well, especially in the case of the calf slicer.

if someone struggles to dislocate an elbow with an armbar after its been fully locked on, then it's probably not being applied well or the person is not in very good position.

same goes for kimura but i'd say position is even more crucial there

 

[zeli_papa]

I'd say it's very easy with any joints given that technique is applied correctly. Not all submissions will break bones, many of them will rupture the ligaments instead which is in fact worse than the actual break of the bone.

 

[davou]

bicep and calf slicers target the elbow and knee, respectively as well, and it really doesn't take much force. if those joints dont give before a bone breaks, it's probably not being applied very well, especially in the case of the calf slicer.

if someone struggles to dislocate an elbow with an armbar after its been fully locked on, then it's probably not being applied well or the person is not in very good position.

same goes for kimura but i'd say position is even more crucial there

Yep, exactly this. Proper slicers function by shearing through the joint rather than attempting to hyper extend them past their usual range of motion. They're nasty as hell

 

[BJ@LW&WW]

many of them will rupture the ligaments instead which is in fact worse than the actual break of the bone.

i'd much rather tear ligaments in my elbow than have either of my major forearm bones broken.

 

[RJ Green]

painwise maybe, but lasting damage? you should want the break over a bum ligament.

 

[BJ@LW&WW]

painwise maybe, but lasting damage? you should want the break over a bum ligament.

have had my elbow hyperextended many times and its back to 100%. my broken arm still hurts me daily and on rough days is enough to stop me from training hard, particularly in the context of takedowns.

knee ligaments probably dont heal quite as nicely, but a broken shin or femur i imagine is way way way worse than a broken arm.

 

[EGDM]

have had my elbow hyperextended many times and its back to 100%. my broken arm still hurts me daily and on rough days is enough to stop me from training hard, particularly in the context of takedowns.

knee ligaments probably dont heal quite as nicely, but a broken shin or femur i imagine is way way way worse than a broken arm.

Elbows hyper extend fairly dramatically with little real damage. "Pops" from an armbar are usually small ruptures in the joint capsule, which heals readily. If you tear the ligaments, that's a very different story. Knee ligaments really don't "heal" in the sense you might assume. They scar over the ruptured area but they never return to their original length and tension. This process can take up to a year. A break sucks, but unless you really mangle the bone it should return to very near 100% usability within 6-8 weeks regardless of future aches.

 

[BJ@LW&WW]

Elbows hyper extend fairly dramatically with little real damage. "Pops" from an armbar are usually small ruptures in the joint capsule, which heals readily. If you tear the ligaments, that's a very different story. Knee ligaments really don't "heal" in the sense you might assume. They scar over the ruptured area but they never return to their original length and tension. This process can take up to a year. A break sucks, but unless you really mangle the bone it should return to very near 100% usability within 6-8 weeks regardless of future aches.

i was thinking of elbow joints and ligaments as the same thing when theyre not. how exactly do people end up hurting/tearing elbow ligaments then?

my radial bone wasnt terribly mangled i dont think, but it's been like two years and it often hurts enough that i worry it will re-injure if i continue.

 

[SummerStriker]

How about that armbar Mighty Mouse hit last night? Jesus.

 

[EGDM]

how exactly do people end up hurting/tearing elbow ligaments then

Severe hyperextension, twisting, or moving the joint outside of its expected track (your elbow is only supposed to flex parallel with the biceps - the rest of your perceived range comes from the shoulder).

 

[RJ Green]

i was thinking of elbow joints and ligaments as the same thing when theyre not. how exactly do people end up hurting/tearing elbow ligaments then?

ligaments hold bones together, tendons anchor muscles between bones.

ligaments don't like when bones exceed their range of motion. think of them like rubber bands - they're designed to give a little bit, but if they're overstreched too far or too quickly they'll either lose their elasticity or snap.

the *pops* you hear during an armbar aren't usually bones breaking, but a combination of synovial fluid bubbles popping (like in your knuckles) and ligaments tearing. yay!

 

[EGDM]

how exactly do people end up hurting/tearing elbow ligaments then?

Apparently you shred your elbow like this:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/severely-injured-elbow.3636495/