How I'd fix the college system

[Possum Jenkins]

I'll say, having talked to very intelligent people who've not studied anything in the humanities (or at least not much), I can see why schools force people to take certain classes unrelated to the diploma they're going for. The worldview of people uninterested and un/understudied in the humanities is, in my experience, formulaic and dry, and in the worst cases, potentially dangerous.

Yeah, we figured this out in the 1700s, which is why universities today look the way they do. The point was to create well-rounded thinkers, not just people really good at one task, which is what vocational training does.


Humboldt's educational model went beyond vocational training in Germany. In a letter to the Prussian king, he wrote:

There are undeniably certain kinds of knowledge that must be of a general nature and, more importantly, a certain cultivation of the mind and character that nobody can afford to be without. People obviously cannot be good craftworkers, merchants, soldiers or businessmen unless, regardless of their occupation, they are good, upstanding and – according to their condition – well-informed human beings and citizens. If this basis is laid through schooling, vocational skills are easily acquired later on, and a person is always free to move from one occupation to another, as so often happens in life.

Humboldtian model of higher education - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[avenue94]

I feel higher education as a whole needs to be restructured into apprenticeships.
I don't mean just IT or engineering, I mean every degree/field as a while.
Imagine having a medicine apprenticeship where one was paid money as they learnt how to become a doctor instead of forking hundreds of thousands of dollars to become one.

That's called residency.

 

[FléauDeDieu]

That's called residency.

you know that only comes after your degree

 

[Nizam al-Mulk]

Yeah, we figured this out in the 1700s, which is why universities today look the way they do. The point was to create well-rounded thinkers, not just people really good at one task, which is what vocational training does.


Humboldt's educational model went beyond vocational training in Germany. In a letter to the Prussian king, he wrote:

Humboldtian model of higher education - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There was a lot of place for well rounded thinkers not to have a college degree, journalists having degrees is a new thing.

 

[Slobodan]

Plus, we already have these "train you for the position you need" scenarios. They're called apprenticeships.

They were all the rage in medieval times

No need to waste your time with all that useless book stuff. You picked your career at age 12 and by 20 you were ready to do that one thing (and only that one thing) until you die.

Brilliant!

This is how our forum's very own @lsa became a swine herder.

 

[cincymma79]

Instead of handing the universities over to corporations, how about we cut 90% of the administration? Professors didn't turn students into customers, admin departments did and now they outnumber and are paid more than the professors.

Or, just get rid of the professors and have college be an all admin institution that ties huge debt around the necks of the youth.

this is due to that sweet sweet guaranteed government money coming in btw

 

[Kung Fu Kowboy]

@Neck&Neck @Bobby Boulders @Neck&Neck

 

[PG29 red0 Jr]

Here is how I would fix college: No government loans or government student aid.

Done. Solved.

 

[Bballfan123]

Here is how I would fix college: No government loans or government student aid.

Done. Solved.

Govt gives colleges FREE MONEY and what, they are expected to turn it down?

Unlike you old farts ive been to college relatively recently. even at a place that purposely cut admin bloat there's admin bloat. how can there not be?

in regards to op this is NOT a good idea. the company will simply teach the student what the company wants at that exact moment. In tech this is TERRIBLE. what if they force you to learn something only the company needs and then tech evolves and the person has outdated skills that are useless except at that company? maybe they have some wierd version of javascript that no one else uses.

and don't pretend like we live in the 50s or 80s. dude these companies EXPLOIT AND USE PEOPLE ARE YOU NUTS? amazon just fired 40,000 people over AN EMAIL. they DO NOT CARE ABOUT THEIR EMPLOYEES. they will throw you away for 50 bucks in tech. it's a soulless business about the bottom line.

what happens if the company goes through corporate restructuring and they shitcan all the students? what, they just have to drop out of school because Master said so? not a good idea

 

[Bballfan123]

I'll say, having talked to very intelligent people who've not studied anything in the humanities (or at least not much), I can see why schools force people to take certain classes unrelated to the diploma they're going for. The worldview of people uninterested and un/understudied in the humanities is, in my experience, formulaic and dry, and in the worst cases, potentially dangerous. The human component needs to be taught and emphasized and I'd imagine learning other shit increases mental flexibility too and I say that as someone who has deep troubles focusing on things he's not interested in.

If we're building a society and sustainability, happiness, equitability and connectivity aren't the building blocks and we're not learning from history, then what is the point? You can be Brainiac McGee, but if there's no humanity, it's for naught.

teaching someone how to use their hands but not teaching them why is how you create demons. i agree a lot of smart tech people are borderline retarded at other things like writing or thinking about social issues and pretend life is a video game.

 

[Bballfan123]

make it free and super hard

make gen eds free but difficult and you only pay for major classes to weed out stupid people

two options

problem is its hard to tell a GOOD degree from a bad degree. todays day and age you can literally pay people to go to school for you. you learn nothing, daddy pays a stranger to take your classes and exams, its bad. nepotism.

only solution is to make the degree valuable to employers by making it super hard.

BUT,... employers don't want a generic smart person. they want some idiot to come in, not threaten management, show up do their job for 15 hours straight and leave.

 

[cooks1]

But my plan would fix that. Cost would go down because corporations being the customer means they will be very selective in ensuring they're getting value. So colleges will have to be competitive in terms of cost. Plus it would be free for students.

Also, it would eliminate the belief that everyone needs to go. Because if Microsoft hasn't hired you into the program yet, then there's no reason for you to get a degree related to that job.

We certainly agree that the current model is terrible. But your solution would likely make things worse not better.

There is no certainty the cost would go down. The cost would only go down if demand went down relative to the supply. Also, once this model initiated, it would only be a matter of time before the large companies vertically integrated, owned the colleges, and used the tuition contracts and clawback provisions to lock employees into indentured servitude.

I like the idea (and many companies already do-especially in trades) of expanding apprenticeship programs.....especially in specialist white collar fields. Fuck college altogether. Pluck folks out of HS and the apprenticeship program is the college. The company can pay them much less during that time, but they get certifications and/or licensing once they are done. The companies will have a vested interest in keeping them because they are properly trained. And the employee has valuable accreditation they can take to another employer if they need to.

 

[Fluffernutter]

 

[Possum Jenkins]

State and federal funding of universities has decreased steadily over the last several decades. This means student tuition has had to fill the gap.

The interesting thing about this chart is that while it shows that tuition is a bigger part of university revenue, the rise isn't as dramatic as the rise in tuition itself. This indicates that universities are becoming more expensive to operate.

And it's NOT because professors or admins have outrageous salaries either. At least for public schools, you can look up their salaries on state databases and see that they're not crazy high at all.

I think it's that college campuses are becoming too high-end and fancy. Schools now spend hundreds of millions on new dining halls and rec centers and dorms to make them uber comfy and beautiful. Even big, public universities. Yeah, everyone loves comfort and beauty but you're definitely paying for it.

Make college more spartan and you'll see costs lower.

 

[PG29 red0 Jr]

Govt gives colleges FREE MONEY and what, they are expected to turn it down?

If schools had to compete in the free market without government involvement, things would improve.

 

[F1980]

What's the point? AI is going to take over all research in the future. It's going to take out 99% of what universities do for the betterment of society.

 

[avenue94]

you know that only comes after your degree

Yeah, because there is a lot of stuff that has to be learned before getting hands on. Not to mention med school isn't purely textbooks and lectures.

Put it this way, what do you think future doctors should be doing during their apprenticeship that they aren't already doing in med school?

 

[avenue94]

What's the point? AI is going to take over all research in the future. It's going to take out 99% of what universities do for the betterment of society.

Lol it isn't. You don't seem to realize how dumb AI is at actual research or that OpenAI's 20K a month fee for PhD level agents is literally more expensive than hiring PhD students.

 

[F1980]

Lol it isn't. You don't seem to realize how dumb AI is at actual research or that OpenAI's 20K a month fee for PhD level agents is literally more expensive than hiring PhD students.

You're looking at AI of today. Do you honestly think that 10 years from now, AI is going to be like what it is now?

Look at what AI can make 2 years ago. Then look at what AI can make today.

 

[avenue94]

You're looking at AI of today. Do you honestly think that 10 years from now, AI is going to be like what it is now?

We've already used up all the quality training data in recorded human history at this point. What do you propose we train AI on next?

That's without getting into scaling and engineering limits for silicon.

Look at what AI can make 2 years ago. Then look at what AI can make today.

And yet ChatGPT 5 was stagnant due to basic economics. Economics the industry has not shown any roadmap to surmounting soon.

Speaking of economics, you also haven't answered, why would a college pay more to pay for a dumber AI subscription than spending less to hire an actual expert?