How good is Yoshihiro Akiyama?

[panem-et-circenses]

LeBanner is a HW and we are talking about a guy that should have been at WW, your perspective seems off. Dennis Kang was a beast at the time that Akiyama beat him, Kang later declining takes nothing away from that win IMO.

I just listed the orgs though. He could’ve beaten Zaromskis. I didn’t bother looking up Bellator because it was Askren. And, no, he wasn’t beating prime Diaz.

I said that Kang mattered then; he was a skilled fighter. What he did next mattered, too. We can get into why, but that has been discussed many times over the years. the fact remains: his career took a nose dive, and even he has the same amount of UFC wins as Akiyama.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

I just listed the orgs though. He could’ve beaten Zaromskis. I didn’t bother looking up Bellator because it was Askren. And, no, he wasn’t beating prime Diaz.

I said that Kang mattered then; he was a skilled fighter. What he did next mattered, too. We can get into why, but that has been discussed many times over the years. the fact remains: his career took a nose dive, and even he has the same amount of UFC wins as Akiyama.

Lol, why couldn't he beat Nick in 2005, he lost to Karo and Diego not long before that. I already listed Strikeforce and EliteXC as places he could have been champ at WW between 2005-2008 and Karo has a similar style to him and beat Nick not long before 2005.

Akiyama fought Shields to a close decision at WW years later when he was much worse I don't see why it wouldn't be a winnable fight when he was younger and better.

Kang fell apart mentally due to family issues, you can look this up and I'm pretty positive it happened after he fought Akiyama so it's not relevant to that fight or how good Kang was at the time.

 

[panem-et-circenses]

Lol, why couldn't he beat Nick in 2005, he lost to Karo and Diego not long before that. I already listed Strikeforce and EliteXC as places he could have been champ at WW between 2005-2008 and Karo has a similar style to him and beat Nick not long before 2005 and he fought Shields to a close decision at WW years later when he was much worse.

Who DID he beat? His career is almost over, the record exist.

Prime Karo and Diego beat Akiyama.

You’re projecting a lot of wins against well respected fighters based on him beating…hand-picked fighters, like Toomey.

Nick outlasts Akiyama. Akiyama had a body lock. Nick TKO’s Akiyama in a five round fight.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Who DID he beat? His career is almost over, the record exist.

Prime Karo and Diego beat Akiyama.

You’re projecting a lot of wins against well respected fighters based on him beating…hand-picked fighters, like Toomey.

Nick outlasts Akiyama. Akiyama had a body lock. Nick TKO’s Akiyama in a five round fight.

Styles make fights you're acting like this is a video game or anime where if you beat someone you're better than them everywhere that's not how it works.

Akiyama had better takedowns than Karo and better striking, Karo had better cardio. Since you like bringing up the Le Banner fight so much Nick would have got knocked out by him too, Nick's takedowns and top control weren't as good as Akiyama's so he would have been forced to stand with Le Banner too and would have been finished as well.

You're really not analyzing these style matchups whatsoever.

 

[panem-et-circenses]

Styles make fights you're acting like this is a video game or anime where if you beat someone you're better than them everywhere that's not how it works.

Akiyama had better takedowns than Karo and better striking, Karo had better cardio. Since you like bringing up the Le Banner fight so much Nick would have got knocked out by him too, Nick's takedowns and top control weren't as good as Akiyama's so he would have been forced to stand with Le Banner too and would have been finished as well.

You're really not analyzing these style matchups whatsoever.

The question the TS proposed: how good was Akiyama? I said, ‘decent, but not champ material’. You thought otherwise, listing organizations he wouldn’t have been champ in, really.

We’re going in circles, listing fantasy match-ups. Alright. It’s fun to go back in order to think about what would’ve happened. I think he wouldve lost most of those fights, style differences and all, whereas you think he’d do a bit better. The easier question would be: which top ten welterweights does Akiyama beat from 2005 to 2012?

I brought up LeBanner because historically — including kickboxers better than Jerome — K-1 guys have been brought in to be feasted upon. He took Jerome down, Jerome got right back up, and then brawling Akiyama got KO’d. I get the weight differential, inexperience, etc., yet I think it’s an interesting fight, for it shows weaknesses that he’d never fix.

The thing is, Akiyama’s career is all but over. We watched him fight for many years. The fight footage is out there and the records exist. A lot of brawling, some good trips, never could beat mid-card UFC guys. His biggest win is Melvin. His career was a C: big name, made money (drawing power does matter), had good fights; yet he never did anything in the majors (outside of the tourney win). Not sure what else to add. He had some skills. I don’t dislike him as a fighter or person. Just answering the OP.

Edit:

To answer the TS question about potential. Akiyama didn’t underachieve. He was never going to be a perennial top five fighter at welterweight or middle.

 

[BB in Crazy!!!!]

Who DID he beat? His career is almost over, the record exist.

Prime Karo and Diego beat Akiyama.

You’re projecting a lot of wins against well respected fighters based on him beating…hand-picked fighters, like Toomey.

Nick outlasts Akiyama. Akiyama had a body lock. Nick TKO’s Akiyama in a five round fight.

Prime Karo does not beat Akiyama lol. Karos prime offense was his Judo and he was a decision machine. Akiyama beats Karo. Diego only likely beats Akiyama due to his cardio. But I can see Akiyama taking Diego as well since Akiyama hit really damn had and Diego had a habit of blocking punches with his face.

 

[BB in Crazy!!!!]

Who DID he beat? His career is almost over, the record exist.

Prime Karo and Diego beat Akiyama.

You’re projecting a lot of wins against well respected fighters based on him beating…hand-picked fighters, like Toomey.

Nick outlasts Akiyama. Akiyama had a body lock. Nick TKO’s Akiyama in a five round fight.

Nick wasn’t doing to hot back in 05-06. A much smaller Gomi busted his face in 5 minutes, then gassed. Noons was kicking Nicks ass the first time they fought too. Nick started turning it around right after that fight though, then Akiyama losses to that Nick.

 

[BB in Crazy!!!!]

The question the TS proposed: how good was Akiyama? I said, ‘decent, but not champ material’. You thought otherwise, listing organizations he wouldn’t have been champ in, really.

We’re going in circles, listing fantasy match-ups. Alright. It’s fun to go back in order to think about what would’ve happened. I think he wouldve lost most of those fights, style differences and all, whereas you think he’d do a bit better. The easier question would be: which top ten welterweights does Akiyama beat from 2005 to 2012?

I brought up LeBanner because historically — including kickboxers better than Jerome — K-1 guys have been brought in to be feasted upon. He took Jerome down, Jerome got right back up, and then brawling Akiyama got KO’d. I get the weight differential, inexperience, etc., yet I think it’s an interesting fight, for it shows weaknesses that he’d never fix.

The thing is, Akiyama’s career is all but over. We watched him fight for many years. The fight footage is out there and the records exist. A lot of brawling, some good trips, never could beat mid-card UFC guys. His biggest win is Melvin. His career was a C: big name, made money (drawing power does matter), had good fights; yet he never did anything in the majors (outside of the tourney win). Not sure what else to add. He had some skills. I don’t dislike him as a fighter or person. Just answering the OP.

Edit:

To answer the TS question about potential. Akiyama didn’t underachieve. He was never going to be a perennial top five fighter at welterweight or middle.

He beat Belcher, a mid card guy. Was getting the better of Leben and Bisping. He gassed. His gas tank was his biggest weakness. You are acting like he got schooled by everyone who was decent that he fought. Kang was a good win. Nearly (should have) beat a top 5 Shields. Dropped Misaki shortly before Misaki dropped Akiyama and then got himself DQd. Smoked a much younger Aoki.

 

[panem-et-circenses]

He beat Belcher, a mid card guy. Was getting the better of Leben and Bisping. He gassed. His gas tank was his biggest weakness. You are acting like he got schooled by everyone who was decent that he fought. Kang was a good win. Nearly (should have) beat a top 5 Shields. Dropped Misaki shortly before Misaki dropped Akiyama and then got himself DQd. Smoked a much younger Aoki.

He lost those fights, though (I already gave my opinion on Kang). And Aoki…that was embarrassing for Shinya. Arguably had a 10-8 round against Akiyama, then, not unexpectedly, he got put out. But Aoki has driven circles around Akiyama in terms of fight/training time and is almost 40.

We’re talking about what his career was, and what it could’ve been. His career was okay — C level — and I don’t think he could’ve been a hall-of-famer or anything, or even a true contender. He generated a lot of interests and money.

 

[30455378008]

Very good but even more marketable
The Sakuraba fight was pretty messed up, cant help wonder how that would have gone without the grease

Seems like the Misaki fight was overturned after the fact, they anounced Misaki the winner and did post fight and everything

Even though he lost he put on a classic with Chris Leben

 

[JacJeanFinger]

Karo didn't accept to fight yoshiyuki zenko yoshida and akiyama's judo is as good or even better than yoshida's. I don't think karo wanted to fight akiyama who was also a formidable opponent as a striker.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Some of these pro Akiyama arguments don't make that much sense. He would be a WW champion but only from 05-08 and in strikeforce? Huh..? Strikeforce did not have a WW title back then nor was someone like Nick Diaz in his prime. Also, Diaz beat higher level fighters than Akiyama who was literally new to the sport in 05-08, Diaz beat Gomi for god sakes.

The two best orgs from 05-08 was PRIDE and UFC and Akiyama would not be a champion in either one. Akiyama already got beaten buy the guys in PRIDE's 185 division.

At WW the best title after the UFC's would be the WEC's. That belt was held by Carlos Condit, who had experience fighting Judoka. Condit at that point had also beaten Frank Trigg and Brock Larson. Right after the WEC he would pretty much fight a string of guys who are better or as good as anyone Akiyama has beaten and won every fight except a split against Kampmann. Condit also beat Diaz soundly as well.

There is nothing we've seen from Akiyama that would suggest he would beat Carlos Condit.


What is this other WW title that exist during this time frame? Elite XC is the only other org who I can remember and no one cared about their champs, they were basically a low class freak show org. Their champion though was Jake Shields who isn't exactly an easy out, and to say Shields resume is better than Akiyama would be a dramatic understatement. Shields had already won the Rumble on the Rock GP and defeated a more experienced Akiyama at 185. Akiyama was not past his prime in 2012 he was on a losing streak because he was fighting killers.

Akiyama was useful because he was a draw, exciting fighter, interesting background and charismatic figure. He won a lot of fights in Japan because he had the bookers behind them. You're falling for a marketing ploy if you think Akiyama is beating GSP lol. No, Dennis Kang wasn't THAT good - not so good that it destroys everyone elses resume of beating a bunch of established fighters. v

The sky is the limit thing is totally baseless. He wasn't held back by any major injuries or substance abuse problems, he had every opportunity, even more than the average fighter to reach the top.

I fail to see how he would have been so much better at 170 considering how bad his conditioning was. He lost to Chris Leben, who is not a big middleweight (neither is Shields) and also lost to Leben when he ran out of stamina. He was so gassed that he got out grappled by..Chris Leben. Yeah Leben has a blackbelt or something, but come on now.

Now, we're supposed to believe that with Akiyama cutting weight and fighting guys who are generally faster and better conditioned that he is going to be a top 3 fighter? Doesn't make sense to me. Is he going to gas out Jon Fitch?

He just was a good fighter not a great one. Not every guy on the show is supposed to be the champion.

 

[pankrat]

I wasn't just talking about the Netflix show affecting his progress 10 years ago, he was on Korean television shows and movies and modeling over the past 15+ years. I just didn't see him (I could be wrong) being like a lot of other fighters who put their full focus into MMA and train every day.

Thanks for the analysis, I agree about his skills. I thought he could be better if he was fully dedicated to MMA but with a ceiling of maybe the outer parts of top 10 all time, which he isn't as is. He's 47 (looks damn good for his age) and would no way be a current UFC or Bellator champ and I agree that Bisping is a little better but he was known to be committed to his craft.

I felt size was an issue with pretty much all the Japanese fighters (outside of maybe Yushin Okami) when fighting in UFC/Bellator, probably because they never grew up wrestling and cutting weight?

Okami wasn't a big weight cutter at all as a MW. This thing of him being a huge MW was just a meme not a real thing. He used to cut about as much as other Japanese of his generation and actually competed at WW about half of his career.

If Okami had more succes than others it wasnt because he was a bigger weight cutter but rather because he was more skilled, put it all toguether better

There are just not many Japanese athletes in upperweightclasses, but that's the case for any other combat sport.

Akiyama should've dropped to WW sonner though. I think he could have gotten closer to a tittle shot there but ultimately he would fell short mainly due to poor endurance and although has power on his feet he was always predictable and stationary to the point Shields comfortably outstriked him.

Well, wrestling and other grappling sports exist in Japan and they perform at a high level. They understand cutting weight they just aren't doing it lol, especially back when Akiyama was in his prime.

The fighters from Japan are just not very professional. They don't treat it that seriously, they look at it more like just two guys fighting I think. A lot of machismo involved. Out dated training methods both for technique and conditioning. Poor match selection, their younger fighters get derailed by veteran journeymen or they'll go to USA and fight some absolute killer. Lack of respect for cutting weight (let's call it poor diet to simplify it).

MMA came from Japanese Pro Wrestling so I think the JMMA scene has never really gotten away from that. It's just a show, no real prestige in it from their perspective. That's why the titles mean so little, even in PRIDE they did not mean much.

Japan is THE martial arts country. They have so many different martial arts and combat sports it is ridiculous. MMA is just lost in the shuffle for them. They have the infrastructure to set up some epic prospects but that's just not in anyone's interest at the moment it seems, at least no one rich enough to get the job done.

They've done a nice job with reviving kickboxing and building a great foundation for it. If they do the same for MMA they'll be right up there with some of the "power" countries.

Japan is and has always been a force in the lightes weightclasses, even in Western combat sports as wrestling, boxing or kickboxing, let alone traditional MA as Karate or Judo.
And it could very well be the case for MMA and actually is to a decent extent. Horiguchi is credited as one of the very best of his generation even p4p, and there are a couple of coming up talents in the lightest weightclasses who could held such status, as Taira.
Standout Japaese fighters often move to USA to train so they are not much different in that sense than fighters from any other country nowadays.

 

[pankrat]

2005-2008 he could have been champ in Strikeforce or EliteXC at WW IMO, not saying it would be a given that he would be but he would have a good shot at either belt in that time frame. He was declining for a few years already by the time he dropped to WW.

You could say so about plenty of different fighters around his size from that time frame so it's a pretty pointless thing to say.
Akiyama's countrymen Misaki and Okami would have a better chance than him and obviously there were a good number of fighters around his size in USA, Brazil or other countries who could claim it too so seems like a pretty pointless way of hyping him lol

 

[Bluesbreaker]

Some of these pro Akiyama arguments don't make that much sense. He would be a WW champion but only from 05-08 and in strikeforce? Huh..? Strikeforce did not have a WW title back then nor was someone like Nick Diaz in his prime. Also, Diaz beat higher level fighters than Akiyama who was literally new to the sport in 05-08, Diaz beat Gomi for god sakes.

The two best orgs from 05-08 was PRIDE and UFC and Akiyama would not be a champion in either one. Akiyama already got beaten buy the guys in PRIDE's 185 division.

At WW the best title after the UFC's would be the WEC's. That belt was held by Carlos Condit, who had experience fighting Judoka. Condit at that point had also beaten Frank Trigg and Brock Larson. Right after the WEC he would pretty much fight a string of guys who are better or as good as anyone Akiyama has beaten and won every fight except a split against Kampmann. Condit also beat Diaz soundly as well.

There is nothing we've seen from Akiyama that would suggest he would beat Carlos Condit.


What is this other WW title that exist during this time frame? Elite XC is the only other org who I can remember and no one cared about their champs, they were basically a low class freak show org. Their champion though was Jake Shields who isn't exactly an easy out, and to say Shields resume is better than Akiyama would be a dramatic understatement. Shields had already won the Rumble on the Rock GP and defeated a more experienced Akiyama at 185. Akiyama was not past his prime in 2012 he was on a losing streak because he was fighting killers.

Akiyama was useful because he was a draw, exciting fighter, interesting background and charismatic figure. He won a lot of fights in Japan because he had the bookers behind them. You're falling for a marketing ploy if you think Akiyama is beating GSP lol. No, Dennis Kang wasn't THAT good - not so good that it destroys everyone elses resume of beating a bunch of established fighters. v

The sky is the limit thing is totally baseless. He wasn't held back by any major injuries or substance abuse problems, he had every opportunity, even more than the average fighter to reach the top.

I fail to see how he would have been so much better at 170 considering how bad his conditioning was. He lost to Chris Leben, who is not a big middleweight (neither is Shields) and also lost to Leben when he ran out of stamina. He was so gassed that he got out grappled by..Chris Leben. Yeah Leben has a blackbelt or something, but come on now.

Now, we're supposed to believe that with Akiyama cutting weight and fighting guys who are generally faster and better conditioned that he is going to be a top 3 fighter? Doesn't make sense to me. Is he going to gas out Jon Fitch?

He just was a good fighter not a great one. Not every guy on the show is supposed to be the champion.

Condit's fight with Miura suggest Akiyama could have won.

 

[Doctor Grudge]

Condit's fight with Miura suggest Akiyama could have won.

I think I get where you're coming from. You're likely thinking Akiyama is a higher level Judoka than Miura so he'd implement the same game plan but just better.


But I think it's a false dichotomy that is often used in MMA. We have a very large sample size of how Akiyama fights and very rarely has used his judo in such a free flowing fashion like Miura does. If Akiyama tries to take down Condit could he? Sure, he could, but he's not getting in on him as easily as Miura did.

Akiyama has to commit hard for a takedown - and for one I'm not sure if he would even think to do it, and two he's not getting in easily with his flat foot work without taking some serious hits.

Furthermore, if he takes down Condit then what? Condit is good off his back and could just get back up or even just submit him if Akiyama is careless enough. He is a better grappler than Akiyama.

Last, Condit beat Miura by taking him into deep waters and finishing him on the ground when he was tired (if I can recall). Condit has incredible cardio, Akiyama got tapped out by Chris Leben at MW at the end of round 3. Condit vs Miura was a 5 round fight, and Condit vs Akiyama for the WEC title would also be a 5 round fight at 170 pounds (Akiyama has to cut).

It doesn't seem likely to me that Akiyama is winning via decision in a 5 round fight. Unless you think Akiyama is knocking out Condit which seems unlikely. Condit has struck with guys just as dangerous if not more so than Akiyama and came out on top. Akiyama is slower and more predictable than Condit and does not use kicks.

Ultimately, Miura was able to land some slick trips and throws on Condit in their scrambles but he couldn't do anything to Condit. Miura had no way to finish Carlos. It made for an entertaining fight but one that Miura didn't have a method of winning other than squeaking a decision. Akiyama would have the same problems except he has to go 25 minutes in a lower weight class against a cardio machine with a killer instinct.

 

[Deleted member 363827]

I am a bit too late to this thread, but let me sum up Akiyama's career for future generation of MMA fans.

2004-2006, one of the biggest MMA stars in Japan. Good MW career so far (not Great), he is in the less prestigious Hero's promotion (compared to Pride), but still on Japanese TV all the time.
Dec 2006 - Jan 2007, became the most hated fighter in Japan history for cheating against Sakuraba. Hardcore Japanese fans still not forgive him after 16 years.
2007 - 2008, biggest heel in Japan MMA, got huge win over Denis Kang in South Korea, more controversy after Kazuo Misaki's win over him got overturned. Did not join Dream MW GP. This is the period where the Korean fans adopted him, after previously dropping him when he left the South Korean Judo national team to Japanese team back in 2002.
2009 - 2012, signed with the UFC, UFC somehow kept promoting him as a Japanese superstar, even if he was the most hated man in the community. Went 1-4. I think that pretty much sum it up. Good skill set, but bad fight IQ.
2012 - 2015, became super popular in South Korea, thanks to his daughter, Sarang, becoming super child star in Return of Superman TV show. He fought sporadically during this period.
2019 - Present, joined ONE and was featured in several Japanese Internet shows as a heel character. Partially redeemed himself for the Japanese fan, when he accepted to cut weight and knock out Shinya Aoki.

Overall, he is...fine? Sure if you match him up right, he could grab a belt outside of UFC here and there.

 

[Twc]

Akiyama was useful because he was a draw, exciting fighter, interesting background and charismatic figure. He won a lot of fights in Japan because he had the bookers behind them. You're falling for a marketing ploy if you think Akiyama is beating GSP lol. No, Dennis Kang wasn't THAT good - not so good that it destroys everyone elses resume of beating a bunch of established fighters.

He wasn't held back by any major injuries or substance abuse problems, he had every opportunity, even more than the average fighter to reach the top.

I fail to see how he would have been so much better at 170 considering how bad his conditioning was. He lost to Chris Leben, who is not a big middleweight (neither is Shields) and also lost to Leben when he ran out of stamina. He was so gassed that he got out grappled by..Chris Leben. Yeah Leben has a blackbelt or something, but come on now.

He just was a good fighter not a great one. Not every guy on the show is supposed to be the champion.

This is what the argument for Akiyama possibly not reaching his potential was: he was a charismatic draw who had a lot of opportunities both in and outside of fighting. Do you think he trained as hard as all of his peers during this time or did his opportunities outside distract from that? If it was the latter and he had trained just as hard as everyone else would he be better? I'd say so, he lost at least a couple fights be the gassed out badly.

I agree that he had terrible cardio which goes back to the last question. Was it because he was overly muscular? I don't think so as I felt he was small for his weight class but maybe it was. He showed good skills in some of these fights he lost. Or was his terrible cardio due to lack of proper/enough training?

 

[Doctor Grudge]

This is what the argument for Akiyama possibly not reaching his potential was: he was a charismatic draw who had a lot of opportunities both in and outside of fighting. Do you think he trained as hard as all of his peers during this time or did his opportunities outside distract from that? If it was the latter and he had trained just as hard as everyone else would he be better? I'd say so, he lost at least a couple fights be the gassed out badly.

I agree that he had terrible cardio which goes back to the last question. Was it because he was overly muscular? I don't think so as I felt he was small for his weight class but maybe it was. He showed good skills in some of these fights he lost. Or was his terrible cardio due to lack of proper/enough training?

I could have been an MMA champion too if I tried my hardest every day for my entire life, you could too - it's easy to say those type of things. Effort and quality training is what makes people good at MMA and in most things.

We haven't seen anything from Akiyama that would suggest that he was

A) So heavily distracted that he trained less than his opponents. I don't think he even did. Most fighters especially in his era had part time or even full time jobs. Akiyama likely had enough time to train twice a day which is a standard for a full time MMA guy. There are athletes way more popular than Akiyama who have way more press releases and media to attend to and they stay in top of their craft. Akiyama is an Olympic level athlete, he should have training figured out. He's not THAT famous.

B) Had a winning style that would take him to the top. Should we imagine he would have incredible foot work? Sophisticated accurate boxing combinations? God like guard passing with a heavy top game for arm trianlges and kimuras? Unbelievable cardio where he can keep going full pace and chain wrestle guys against the cage until they tire? Stick to his game plan and exploit his opponents weaknesses while staying within his strengths?

It just seems like a no limits fallacy. There is no way that in his long career he never had a period of time where he didn't get to train full time. Just seems like we have to do a lot of reaching for this scenario to work, y'know?

If Mayhem Miller didn't do Bully Beatdown and wasn't distracted with partying would he be the best fighter in the world? It just seems like a big reach based on minuscule evidence. (I know it's not the exact same but a similar premise)

 

[Doctor Grudge]

I agree that he had terrible cardio which goes back to the last question. Was it because he was overly muscular? I don't think so as I felt he was small for his weight class but maybe it was. He showed good skills in some of these fights he lost. Or was his terrible cardio due to lack of proper/enough training?

It's a good question. It could be genetic but I'd say he likely just didnt know how to train himself for a hard 15 minutes (not that he was too distracted for it but didn't train correctly). Like I said earlier the training for MMA was a bit behind I think in Japan.

Akiyama may have had a hard time pacing himself as well. He was a slugger type of fighter. He throws really hard. He isn't energy efficient. Perhaps his IQ paid a large part in him getting tired.