How getting oblique kick feels?

[KarateStylist]

this is not true if you take into consideration how common the leg check is in MT, its as common as the jab in boxing. Meaning the frequency of leg checks being used vs oblique kicks used is 100 to 1. Yet we see plenty of injuries with the oblique kick. It makes no sense to me how people can be advocates of the oblique kick, yeah its a great technique, it fucks shit up, then on the other hand try to defend it as if its not that dangerous.....its an effective technique, thats difficult to block, with a high chance for injury is the bottom line of the technique.

i dont buy into the whole, well your trying to give me brain damage so its fair to break your knee, well your trying to break my knee so its fair to kick you in your balls and poke you eyeballs out. its a weak defense of the technique. You could again probably pull some numbers to determine how much brain damage is happening from a jab (specifically) vs injuries from oblique kicks.

The point of the fight is to KO the guy, not break his knee, if you dont like the fact your opponent is trying to KO you, you shouldnt be fighting, if you want to resort to breaking peoples knees because they are trying to do something to you that you signed up for, at what point do we draw the line? Should we allow eye pokes since your trying to ruin my knee? I just dont agree with it man.

You've been overruled by Jack Slack. He's a prominent authority on MMA striking. Regarded the world over.

To paraphrase Jack Slack, banning the oblique kick would be like banning the armbar because fighters refused to tap or learn how to defend against it.

Now there is someone we can all learn from. Jack Slack.

 

[shincheckin]

I felt that way when Bones and some other fighters started spamming them. I thought it was cheap, added damage without adding much to the sport (like a headbutt) and probably should be banned.

But it turns out it isn't a trump card - it has a long history in Savate. It can be defended against. The fighters adapted. Gus Jones I, Gus was nullifying it with lots of movement.

Look at this last fight, Jones had nearly no success with it and often he got countered hard when he tried because missing with an oblique kick puts you in a weird, close range position.

To paraphrase Jack Slack, banning the oblique kick would be like banning the armbar because fighters refused to tap or learn how to defend against it.

I get what your saying. I dont view the headbutt as dirty or cheap, its used fine in lethwei, i rather see headbutts than the knee stomp kick TBH. Yeah I am aware of it being used in savate, and many other martial arts as self defense. In savate, i believe its aimed at the thigh, like the teep to the thigh, rather than the knee. We had some serious discussions on here about this kick before, as well as its counters and defenses. The majority of techniques, clips, gifs, and videos that were shown, demonstrating a counter/block, IMO were coincidence rather than intentional counters/blocks.

I going to have to disagree with Jack Slack as well. With the armbar, if you have the option of tapping, if you refuse to tap, thats your decision. With a strike, there is no option of tapping. Your in your stance, with your weight on your knee, and some guy kicks you in it as fast as someone can jab, snapping it backwards. Comparing the 2 are not the same.

Ill have to check that fight, im sure missing that kick puts you in a horrible position.

 

[Hotora86]

it wasnt the cleanest shot, we have no idea how bad it was after the fact as they fled, given how bad he was limping on it, and that he was immediately limping on it, despite the adrenaline of a fight, could mean it was injured bad, or maybe my kick didnt hurt him much at all and he was fine 5 minutes later well never know.

The knee stomp is an effective self defense move that is extremely difficult to counter and pretty easy to do...its a lot like kicking someone in the nuts....it works.

I have my view point on this subject and it has already been discussed here, i am not interested in debating it with you.

Whatever view point anyone has on it, and any way it can be viewed, at the end of the day, the goal of the oblique kick is to hyper extend the persons knee, that is the goal of the kick. I think we can all agree on that. Well hyperextending someones knee can cause severe injury. Just like hyperextending someones arm in an armbar can cause severe injury. Difference being in the armbar, you can tap, with the oblique kick there is no tapping because its a strike. Can it be countered...........sure, its possible.

heres an injury for you

Is that legal?
In MT?
In K1?
In kickboxing?

 

[shincheckin]

You've been overruled by Jack Slack. He's a prominent authority on MMA striking. Regarded the world over.


Now there is someone we can all learn from. Jack Slack.

probably so, i have never heard of jack slack, but his comparison of armbars to leg kicks is not accurate, and I disagree with his statements.

I know nothing of this jack slack guy, or what his credentials are to make his point of view the standard, but after searching him, it appears he is a amatuer writer who has trained karate, boxing, and bjj, no mention of competing.

 

[Hotora86]

Funny to see an old Karate technique gaining so much popularity in MMA all of a sudden. I learned it as Fumikomi or Kansetsu geri.

 

[ocean size]

I get what your saying. I dont view the headbutt as dirty or cheap, its used fine in lethwei, i rather see headbutts than the knee stomp kick TBH. Yeah I am aware of it being used in savate, and many other martial arts as self defense. In savate, i believe its aimed at the thigh, like the teep to the thigh, rather than the knee. We had some serious discussions on here about this kick before, as well as its counters and defenses. The majority of techniques, clips, gifs, and videos that were shown, demonstrating a counter/block, IMO were coincidence rather than intentional counters/blocks.

I going to have to disagree with Jack Slack as well. With the armbar, if you have the option of tapping, if you refuse to tap, thats your decision. With a strike, there is no option of tapping. Your in your stance, with your weight on your knee, and some guy kicks you in it as fast as someone can jab, snapping it backwards. Comparing the 2 are not the same.

Ill have to check that fight, im sure missing that kick puts you in a horrible position.

Ok point taken with the armbar but there are other legal submissions like kneebars where you don't get that pain feedback until damage is done. So a fighter that didn't know what a kneebar is could get damaged quickly without a chance to tap, despite it being defendable.

Jones doesn't use the oblique right on the knee, he puts it in the thigh too unless it's coming from an angle. Savate has the same variations from the side.

When I say defend against the oblique I don't mean checking it, I mean lots of movement through range and lateral so it misses and it is nullified or the fighter is open to counter.

The past 5 years or so of Jones and others using it have shown that it wasn't a game changer- just another technique that everyone had to adapt to.

 

[shincheckin]

Is that legal?
In MT?
In K1?
In kickboxing?

in US MT, they see it my way and its illegal, not sure for the other ones.

My scenario was in a street fight, or whats known on sherdog as a "real" fight.

The oblique kick has become the new cool move for all the dudes that train UFC to come in and do BroOoO, I broke this dudes knee in sparring bro it was badass even though I cant even jab properly.

The majority of people I see advocate the oblique kick, are not the ones in there fighting. Most the guys that are actually competing, dont want it, luckily for me, the sanctioning body of body amateur and pro MT in the US, IKF and CSAC, both see it my way and have made it illegal.

 

[KarateStylist]

probably so, i have never heard of jack slack, but his comparison of armbars to leg kicks is not accurate, and I disagree with his statements.

I know nothing of this jack slack guy, or what his credentials are to make his point of view the standard, but after searching him, it appears he is a amatuer writer who has trained karate, boxing, and bjj, no mention of competing.

He reports that he trained in Japan with the JKA or some august Japanese karate org. Could be legit or just a smokescreen.

Anything's liable to happen in media.Promotion is the watch word.

 

[KarateStylist]

The oblique kick has become the new cool move for all the dudes that train UFC to come in and do BroOoO, I broke this dudes knee in sparring bro it was badass even though I cant even jab properly.

You have a solid perspective, IMHO. Any reaction to the Holly Holm kick attempt just prior to the KO?

Seems like this circumstance is just what you're reporting. Holly trying to find a way to fend Nunes off.

 

[flikerstance]

well guys at 205 arnt as technical i feel if guys used it all the time at smaller weight classes it wouldnt be as successful due to shooting

idk why guys dont just run him down with a single chained into a bodylock

striking wise id prob throw a right hand while im switching stances so i can come in and the kick isnt keeping me back not sure if i described what im talking about perfectly but yeah a guy like jon who uses it 90% of his attacks shows that only at those higher weight classes 185 and above is only way it works so well and being that much taller longer than guys you are fighting which is why only he can use it

thats not impressive to me i like seeing guys use attacks that are close to same size and hes just so good at it skillwise that his opponents cant do anything to stop it

 

[shincheckin]

Ok point taken with the armbar but there are other legal submissions like kneebars where you don't get that pain feedback until damage is done. So a fighter that didn't know what a kneebar is could get damaged quickly without a chance to tap, despite it being defendable.

Jones doesn't use the oblique right on the knee, he puts it in the thigh too unless it's coming from an angle. Savate has the same variations from the side.

When I say defend against the oblique I don't mean checking it, I mean lots of movement through range and lateral so it misses and it is nullified or the fighter is open to counter.

The past 5 years or so of Jones and others using it have shown that it wasn't a game changer- just another technique that everyone had to adapt to.

The target is the knee, Jon Jones himself says he calls the technique "push kick to the knees"

Yeah the kneebar is another one that frequently gets brought up in these discussions, I think its more valid than the armbar comparison. As you mentioned if the guy doesnt know what one is, theres a chance for injury before he gets to tap.

My thoughts on the kneebar argument is that, although the time is minimal to tap, it is there, where as with a strike, its non existent. another thing to take into consideration is how difficult/easy kneebar defense and counters are, I dont know BJJ so I have no idea, but the oblique kicks counters/defenses are difficult IMO and the time frame you have to pull it off, is minimal to non existent.

Regarding the counters/blocks to them, I am aware of most of them as we had a hefty debate about this topic a while back, and its been discussed here several times already.

Through my eyes and IMO, the counters/techniques displayed in our previous discussions, did not look intentional, more like a missed shot or slightly misplaced while the other fighter just happened to be moving/bouncing with the rhythm of the fight and the oblique kick misses or slides off. That is how I viewed the videos, I didnt see intentional counters being performed.

Also things that look good or work on paper or theory, dont always work in a fight. Its kind of hard to explain but theres just certain things you can do in training and even sparring or play sparring that arent happening in a fight, not that its impossible, just not likely. These counters look great, but I dont see them being done.



heres a technique that can work, or works in theory, i have used it in sparring, dont really think its that practical for a fight, and you dont see thais using it, if you used this same counter with the oblique kick, you would definitely ruin your knee as oblique is a side kick coming in at a downward angle.



teep to thigh and oblique kick are very different, teep is to thigh with ball of foot in a more horizontal direction. knee stomp is sideways and angled downards. Im sure you probably know this already.

The kneebar is a submission, the goal of a submission is to get the guy to submit, if the kneebar is that dangerous, and guys really do not have any time to "submit" during said submission, than maybe it should be illegal. Fighters safety should always be in mind, theres plenty of other strikes that are illegal due to fighters safety, such as the soccer kick to the head being removed, while striking is still legal. Perhaps this submission should be removed, along with the oblique kick.

Well here at shincheckin school, we believe if someone is trying to ruin our knee, a soccer kick to the head is a fair trade off. What are we going to ban soccer kicks to the head now?

At what point do you draw the line? Who cares bro, its a fight! well then why ban anything at all bro, its a fight!

Its just lame dude, it can go on and on.

 

[shincheckin]

You have a solid perspective, IMHO. Any reaction to the Holly Holm kick attempt just prior to the KO?

Seems like this circumstance is just what you're reporting. Holly trying to find a way to fend Nunes off.

im not really into MMA much, but cant not at least somewhat know about it from being involved in the fight community, i know those 2 fought, didnt know anythign about Holms trying a oblique kick in desperation before getting KO'd, gonna have to take a look at it now.

link?

 

[KarateStylist]

im not really into MMA much, but cant not at least somewhat know about it from being involved in the fight community, i know those 2 fought, didnt know anythign about Holms trying a oblique kick in desperation before getting KO'd, gonna have to take a look at it now.

link?

I say MMA because Muay Thai is considered one of it's core striking arts. At one time or another, the core striking art.

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/nunes-vs-holmes-ko-gif.3982021/page-5#post-153328659

The desperation comment was extrapolated. An educated guess @ Holm finding off an aggressive opponent, very.

Happy hunting.

p.s. I was waiting for your Post #31.

 

[Centaur]

We did it a goat but back when I was doing JKD and savate. It was always done really light and with control. I have my students practice it a lot but only to the thigh (or ribs!)

If anyone does it to the knee on purpose in sparring they’re kicked out. No exceptions.

 

[JohnPJones]

this is not true if you take into consideration how common the leg check is in MT, its as common as the jab in boxing. Meaning the frequency of leg checks being used vs oblique kicks used is 100 to 1. Yet we see plenty of injuries with the oblique kick. It makes no sense to me how people can be advocates of the oblique kick, yeah its a great technique, it fucks shit up, then on the other hand try to defend it as if its not that dangerous.....its an effective technique, thats difficult to block, with a high chance for injury is the bottom line of the technique.

i dont buy into the whole, well your trying to give me brain damage so its fair to break your knee, well your trying to break my knee so its fair to kick you in your balls and poke you eyeballs out. its a weak defense of the technique. You could again probably pull some numbers to determine how much brain damage is happening from a jab (specifically) vs injuries from oblique kicks.

The point of the fight is to KO the guy, not break his knee, if you dont like the fact your opponent is trying to KO you, you shouldnt be fighting, if you want to resort to breaking peoples knees because they are trying to do something to you that you signed up for, at what point do we draw the line? Should we allow eye pokes since your trying to ruin my knee? I just dont agree with it man.

the objective of the fight is not necessarily to KO one another, the objective is to win.

What are all these oblique kick injuries that you’re talking about?

So far I’ve seen a few where the guy getting kicked was hurt, but I’ve seen that level of hurt and injury from multiple techniques.

I have yet to see evidence of an oblique kick causing any where near as serious of damage as a shincheck has.

You’re still stuck in a mindset that these kicks are destroying knees in a single kick during fights.
I won’t change my mind from one example (unlucky things happen) but I’ve yet to find or be shown evidence of an oblique kick flat out ruining a knee...ever, let alone regularly enough to be worth banning in sport.

People aren’t going into matches with the intention to break legs with oblique kicks just like people people aren’t going into fights with the intention of giving anyone brain damage from head punches, but both are possible and head punches have actually resulted in brain damage.

 

[JohnPJones]

Well, if we conversate about self defense not ring, there many things are different.
If we advocate that these kicks are safe for ring, I maybe will advocate to allow open hands techniques. For example, strikes from side of hand spear, not direct strikes if applied to neck higher than where throat located, from some opinions rarely kills.
So if one wish to use strikes to knee, I maybe might advocate opinion, that open hand techniques are enough safe for ring and…
why bother about knee, let's allow frontal direct strikes to lower leg with strike like frontal low mae geri….
Why not? Really effective stuff on tech streets, let's allow in ring.

Is there a rule in the UFC banning a front kick to the lower leg that missed? As for open handed techniques we’ve seen them used plenty effectively and they’ve been shown no more dangerous than punches. Bas Rutten and his pancrase days showed that.

 

[shincheckin]

I have yet to see evidence of an oblique kick causing any where near as serious of damage as a shincheck has.

Theres millions of shinchecks compared to minimal amounts of oblique kicks.......its like comparing the amount of injuries from jabs from flying spinning crane kicks. Obviously one is going to be used a lot more than the other.

The move has been around long before Jon Jones made it popular, and it was primarily known for self defense prior to him making it so popular.

 

[shincheckin]

We did it a goat but back when I was doing JKD and savate. It was always done really light and with control. I have my students practice it a lot but only to the thigh (or ribs!)

If anyone does it to the knee on purpose in sparring they’re kicked out. No exceptions.

Exactly, i did the same thing in my classes. And you really have to watch it, because its the cool new move for the kids to do.

 

[JohnPJones]

Theres millions of shinchecks compared to minimal amounts of oblique kicks.......its like comparing the amount of injuries from jabs from flying spinning crane kicks. Obviously one is going to be used a lot more than the other.

The move has been around long before Jon Jones made it popular, and it was primarily known for self defense prior to him making it so popular.

Never said it wasn’t around before him, never said it wasn’t taught for self defense. The myths of it being a devastating fight ender would make it seem perfect for self defense lol.

But again by now it’s been used enough, by enough people that if it was the crippling move people claim it to be, we should have seen it break a leg in the ring/octagon by now

 

[aerius]

Funny to see an old Karate technique gaining so much popularity in MMA all of a sudden. I learned it as Fumikomi or Kansetsu geri.

Interesting, it appears the push/stomp kick to the knee is even more widespread than I thought. It's one of the fundamental techniques of Savate, same thing in JKD, I've seen it used countless times in Thai stadium fights, my TKD instructor taught us how to use it in self-defence situations, and now I just learned that Karate has it as well. It's a great technique for keeping distance when an opponent is trying to close distance and walk you down, with the bonus that your opponent may get his knee hyper-extended if he has a shitty stance.