How does everyone feel about the spending bill?

[Rod1]

Rod that's what I was saying the whole time. I said that absent the petrodollar, Triffin issues would cripple the US economy, as it did pre-1971

That makes absolutely no sense.

With the US dollar becoming a fiat currency the only limitations to printing dollars is their demand

 

[MicroBrew]

Not all republicans and not all democrats deserve blame just the ones who wrote it and voted for it. Not sure why you're he'll bent on being partisan about this. I mean i know it's an emotional and maturity thing but I guess I don't understand the appeal.

The maturity is in Not making excuses for your guy when he is clearly wrong on responsible.

The party in power gets the most blame. If the GOP had just the White House and the Dems controlled the Senate and House of Rep and as a result were stymieing Trump with bills he doesn't like, then I would attribute blame for both sides. But here the GOP controls both Houses and the WH, and you still won't accept responsibility. Not accepting responsibility is a sign of immaturity and rank partisanship.

 

[faustian]

That makes absolutely no sense.

With the US dollar becoming a fiat currency the only limitations to printing dollars is their demand

No there are obvious fundamental limitations such as inflation and devaluation

 

[Rod1]

No there are obvious fundamental limitations such as inflation and devaluation

Which is why i said "limited by demand".

 

[faustian]

Which is why i said "limited by demand".

I'm sorry but you're gonna have to re-explain your entire position to me. How a nation is able to supply a global fiat currency while still retaining a balance of payments and defending inflation and devaluation

 

[faustian]

Which is why i said "limited by demand".

To narrow this debate: why do you think there exists a global a demand for USDs?

Because it's a fiat not backed by anything tangible? That doesn't seem to make sense

 

[Rod1]

I'm sorry but you're gonna have to re-explain your entire position to me. How a nation is able to supply a global fiat currency while still retaining a balance of payments and defending inflation and devaluation

You mean the current reality in which interest rates have been at near zero for almost 10 years and still having a risk of deflation?

Simple, with a capital flow surplus and economic growth.

 

[faustian]

You mean the current reality in which interest rates have been at near zero for almost 10 years and still having a risk of deflation?

Simple, with a capital flow surplus and economic growth.

And why do you think that capital flow surplus exists?

 

[faustian]

Disclaimer:

My views expressed in this thread are in no way intended to defend the Trump Administration. Personally, I can't stand Trump (evidenced by my pre-election post history), nor did I vote for him, however I am glad he defeated Hillary Clinton. But this has nothing to do with the concepts I believe in, which I defend in my postings in threads such as this

Partisan zombies such as @HomerThompson will reflexively oppose anything I post in threads like this because he will misconstrue my intent. Someone so drowned in partisanship is unable to fathom anything but. However, I hate all politicians. I hate the left for their deliberate subterfuge. More than that, I hate the right for their intent to turn my life upside down as a graduate student. So I hate it all. The only branch I don't hate is the Supreme Court. I love the Supreme Court.

So, when I post something that might be perceivable as against your partisan loyalty, take a second to relax and know that I have no dog in that fight. I'm merely posting what I genuinely believe to be true, and if I'm passionate or aggressive about it, then that means I know it for a fact

 

[Rod1]

And why do you think that capital flow surplus exists?

Because there is a trade deficit.

 

[faustian]

Because there is a trade deficit.

That's not a valid answer. Current account deficit (trade deficit) implies we have nothing to offer to the world. Capital account surplus implies the world is investing in us. How do you reconcile that?

 

[Rod1]

That's not a valid answer. Current account deficit (trade deficit) implies we have nothing to offer to the world. Capital account surplus implies the world is investing in us. How do you reconcile that?

Through economic growth, faith in the US dollar and repatriation of US investments and other countries buying US debt.

 

[TheComebackKid]

The maturity is in Not making excuses for your guy when he is clearly wrong on responsible.

The party in power gets the most blame. If the GOP had just the White House and the Dems controlled the Senate and House of Rep and as a result were stymieing Trump with bills he doesn't like, then I would attribute blame for both sides. But here the GOP controls both Houses and the WH, and you still won't accept responsibility. Not accepting responsibility is a sign of immaturity and rank partisanship.

You're not only being partisan but being silly also

 

[Madmick]

Just like that the Congressional GOP swallows another minnow; assimilates his inferior essence into their own. Resistance is futile.

What a riot that Trump supporters thought he could outfox that group. What a tragedy that they believed he cared to try.

 

[MicroBrew]

You're not only being partisan but being silly also

Projection on your part. You are just being your tribal self as usual.

 

[MicroBrew]

Just like that the Congressional GOP swallows another minnow; assimilates his inferior essence into their own. Resistance is futile.

What a riot that Trump supporters thought he could outfox that group. What a tragedy that they believed he cared to try.

I doubt Trump genuinely cared about accomplishing the bill of goods he sold his grassroots supporters during the 2016 campaign. He's a showman and a conman. As Coulter recently said, the public unveiling of the Wall prototypes with Trump checking it out was big on photo-ops and short on substance.

 

[V-2]

I am genuinely thrilled as far as the portion below is concerned. The hilarious thing about it is not only did Trump propose some of the deepest science-related cuts in modern US history with an additional threat to veto the omnibus on the whole, but at the end of the day he ended up being the President who presided over and signed into law an appropriations bill that brings public R&D investment to its highest point ever in inflation-adjusted dollars.

A big, juicy $176.8 billion package. #MAGA

 

[faustian]

Through economic growth, faith in the US dollar and repatriation of US investments and other countries buying US debt.

Why do you think the world has faith in the USD?

Why do you think the world values repatriation of US investments (which would be denominated in USDs)?

Why do you think the world buys US debt?

You can't give the lazy answer "because of the strong US economy" when we have our annual "government shutdown budget crisis" and there have been strong economies throughout history yet none of them were able to produce an ounce of a degree of monopolistic monetary hegemony anywhere close to that which the US has enjoyed for decades. The British Empire was the largest empire in history, exerting dominion over 24% of the world's total land area and lasting for over a century. Yet the Brits -- who btw invented the concept of strategic monetary policy and currency warfare -- never came close to achieving what the US possesses

The lazy "well the world has faith in the USD" answer doesn't suffice either because we all know the US has accumulated a foreign debt it will never repay. For any other nation in any other time in history that would = currency death. And yet T-bills are predictably sold like hotcakes every day of every month of every year. If there was nothing tangible backing the USD, the world would not bend over backwards to get their hands on USDs. That fact is so obvious I really don't know how to explain it to you -- the most accurate concise explanation is the statement itself

At some point you have to go beyond the generic official incomplete story and ask yourself why. Why is the US allowed to violate the most basic of macroeconomic principles which every other nation on the planet is beholden to? Why are US gov revenues (taxes: ~$3 trillion) something that's considered flexible and even optional when there's a level of gov spending considered mandatory ($2.5 trillion on soc security, medicare, veteran's assistance, etc. + $700 billion to $1 trillion military) which by itself already exceeds revenues? Why do we pretend that we care about a gov deficit when we predetermine every year that we're gonna run a deficit? Why does the US intervene militarily in ME affairs which seemingly have absolutely nothing to do with US interests? Why has every US administration maintained a suspiciously friendly relationship with the Saudi Royal Family?

And most importantly:

***now I'm about to go on a historical tangent here, so I'm cool with you not reading the rest of this post as it's not really that relevant to our discussion***


Today it is known that the US unapologetically runs budget and trade deficits as deliberate practice since the late 70s. Exception would be when Clinton and Gingrich joined forces (scary thought, and the result was even more horrific than could be imagined) in the mid-90s to balance the budget and the US became an instant target for those who sought to overthrow the petrodollar. We can personify petrodollar resistance at this point as Usama Bin Laden (the tipping point for him was when Saddam was threatening invasion of Saudi Arabia, Usama reached out to the Saudi Royal Family and offered protection, but the SRF was like "lol no thanks, we got it covered", and that was when Usama became aware of the faustian bargain between the US and SA. He was disgusted by it, for he felt it went against everything the prophet instructed. He tried peacefully to get the Saudis to exit the agreement and he made the argument that the ME only existed because he and his Mujahideen mercenaries successfully fought off the Soviets who were trying to occupy the holy land.

In 1991 when Saddam went off the rails, Usama gave an offer of protection to the SRF. Usama had just spent nearly a decade fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan. Usama provided the funding, arms, and training for his Mujahideen mercenary army which eventually forced the Soviets to withdraw. Usama offered his 100,000+ man Mujahideen and arms to the SRF. The Saudis rejected his offer in favor of the deal they already had with the US. Usama insisted that if the US military was allowed to set foot in the ME then it would never leave. It was at this time when Usama was made aware of the US/SA behind-the-scenes petrodollar arrangement. He pleaded with the SRF to end the agreement, yet it fell on deaf ears. So, unable to make any headway with the Saudis, Usama then turned his attention towards getting the US to exit the agreement. He knew that US defense of Saudi Arabia was't based on any concepts of respect or reverence to Islam, it was purely $ motivated. Usama requested the US not intervene in the conflict, that he was capable of defending the Saudis and Kuwait. Afterall, it was Usama and his Mujahideen who'd just won a proxy war for the US in Afghanistan.

The US ignored Usama and put boots on the ground in both Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and brought a coalition of nations with them. They then proceeded to massacre the Iraqi Republican Guard (the same army the US funded and armed during the Iran-Iraq War a few years prior in the 80s) annihilating from the air Iraqi forces trying to retreat along Highway 80, rendering the international highway a literal Highway of Death

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_of_Death


In order to obscure visibility of air forces Saddam then had his troops set oil wells ablaze en route back to Baghdad, and it worked as US forces were not prepared to deal with this scenario

A brilliant move by Saddam, not only for the cover it provided him in retreat, but it also sent a message to the US that Saddam was ready and willing to go full scorched earth should the US attempt to go into Iraq. It was for this very reason that Dick Cheney (US Secretary of Defense during the Gulf War) left the DoD to develop a division of Halliburton specializing in combat zone oil well firefighting and containment to serve as a vital component of the private military he was building for use in what was long accepted to be an inevitable reality: Middle East invasion. As CEO of Halliburton Cheney also transformed the company's subsidiary Kellogg, Brown & Root from a civilian construction company into a private military services outfit which provided "security and logistical support" in Iraq and Afghanistan. Security and logistical support is a nice way of describing unofficial military operations involving everything from guarding convoys and killing insurgents while transferring prisoners to non-military (read: not covered under Geneva Conventions) installations for interrogation. Many insist Cheney is a villain, and maybe he is, but he's also a practical genius; identifying both a hole in US military capabilities and loophole in international law, then using the latter to solve the former. Cheney's private military did everything from secure raging oil wells to guard US military forces to take custody of captured enemy combatants to build impromptu holding facilities whose whereabouts were both unknown and off US military bases to interrogate and torture prisoners at these unknown facilities. It's not pretty but it's not supposed to be

Ok back on track, Usama Bin Laden. So, if you can't get your way non-violently, you then must resort to violence. Usama formed the Al-Qaeda network in pursuit of a mission extending beyond mere defense of the ME. Usama needed and created a network of Islamic terrorist outfits which could act independently yet cohesively in joint effort to not just defend the ME but to impose their will upon the entire planet. Which, of course, is what we're witnessing today on an almost weekly basis.

Usama wasn't going to commit violence against his own people, so the decision was made to coerce the US into pulling out of the ME both militarily and economically. With the US gone, Usama could actually establish and lead a modern caliphate, which would, in literal Islamic terms, elevate him to prophet status. imo Usama had that rich kid syndrome; not enough to just appreciate your winning the birth lottery, you have to "make a name for yourself" to prove you're something more than a spoiled rich kid even though your attempts to make a name for yourself end up requiring use of the very privilege you insist you don't need. lmao

The 1993 WTC bombing failed. This was a major setback for Usama as it's not often you get an opportunity to execute such a large scale terror attack on US soil. It was clear that bombing US targets in any significant manner would be difficult if not impossible given the level of security and building codes in the US as well as the perpetrator expertise needed to execute the attack. Al-Qaeda wasn't the IRA; AQ had lemmings willing to die but these were people who ended up with AQ in the first place because they're dumb and naive as shit with literally nothing to live for but the afterlife, whereas IRA soldiers were actually fighting for a legitimate real world cause, a fight for freedom and independence not dissimilar to the men who founded this country. So this is what I mean when I say AQ wasn't capable of following the IRA model of targeted strategic bombings (which by design usually didn't kill people yet still made its point). So AQ needed a different approach to terrorizing the US into forfeiting its economic and monetary hegemony.

Enter Khalid Sheikh Mohammad. Born in Pakistan, grew up in Kuwait, fluent in at least 4 languages, foreign exchange student in the US earning a BS in mechanical engineering, fought for the Mujahideen in Afghanistan vs the Soviets, started a family as project engineer in Qatar. It would later be discovered that while in college in the US he was arrested for fraud and unpaid bills, possibly initiating or enhancing his hatred of the US. KSM would then make his way to the Philippines and Bosnia as an agent for the Muslim Brotherhood. I've gotta say, even though I despise this man, he had his beliefs and was willing to put his life on the line and work for them. After catching heat for an attempt to hijack airliners in the Philippines, he returned to Qatar then traveled to the Sudan, Malaysia, Brazil and Yemen. His activities in these locations are unknown. In 1996 the US ordered Qatar to arrest KSM, so KSM fled to Afghanistan where he hooked up with Bin Laden. In his first meeting with Usama, KSM outlined an airline hijacking plan which eventually became the blueprint for 9/11. But KSM wasn't sold on Usama or AQ and so he moved to Iran then Pakistan then tried moving to Chechnya. It was only upon being refused entrance to Chechnya that he returned to Afghanistan and accepted Usama's offer to join AQ. As an official AQ member, KSM met with AQ leadership and presented his airline hijacking plan. His proposed plan called for hijackings on both coasts of the US and involved civilian targets and nuclear facilities. Usama overrode the plan, but approved of the general airline hijacking concept as a viable terror strategy for use in the US

In 1998 Usama authorized KSM to begin organizing a hijack attack. In 1999, Usama, KSM and Usama's military chief met to finalize the details. Usama decided the targets: the WTC (economy), Pentagon (military) and Capitol Building (government) were selected (if any complications were to occur regarding these targets, the default fallback target would be the White House). ***Hmm.. the 3 US elements which comprise and operate the petrodollar scheme. Probably just a coincidence.***

Mohammad Atta was chosen to lead the attack. In 2000, Usama was growing impatient and wanted Atta to just commence the plan; it didn't matter to Usama if specific targets were hit, simply hijacking and crashing planes would suffice. Atta insisted on taking the necessary time to train the pilots and hijackers so that the intended targets would indeed be taken out

So that's what happened and we all know the rest of the story. It was the deadliest attack on US soil in American history. It was the worst terror attack in world history, as 90 countries lost citizens on that day

If you forgot what it was to witness that, watch at your own risk:



And it wasn't just Americans, the entire world was affected by the horror and reacted with grief:




But it could've been much worse in terms of total casualties. That wasn't the point though. By definition, an act of terrorism must be in pursuit of political aims. If Usama's intent was to just kill as many people as possible he'd have flown the planes into open NFL stadiums which seat ~80k people per stadium. You'd have to think a large airliner crashing into an open air NFL stadium would kill at least 10-15k people instantly. 4 hijackings that's 40-60 thousand deaths. The civilian deaths of 911 weren't Usama's end goal, rather, they were the collateral damage resulting from the end goal of a symbolic attack.

Usama was denied the opportunity to defend his homeland because of the petrodollar, and he wasn't going to attack Saudi Arabia, so Usama went to the US and obliterated the literal physical embodiments of the petrodollar agreement. The time of attack wasn't arbitrary either; it began at the start of the business day, 8:46 am est, shortly after you'd arrive to work in the eastern US. The US west coast woke up to a nightmare. The rest of the fallout from beginning to end was witnessed by Americans over the course of the day

9/11 didn't just happen out of nowhere. There was a motive, and if you ask yourself what that motive was, and if you do your due diligence, you'll find that the answer is consistent with the 3 questions which opened this post

 

[ToxicShocker]

To narrow this debate: why do you think there exists a global a demand for USDs?

Because it's a fiat not backed by anything tangible? That doesn't seem to make sense

IMO the dollar is a stock based on the performance of the US economy

 

[Rod1]

Why do you think the world has faith in the USD?

Strong performance of the economy, Microsoft, Intel, Financial corporations, Apple, Berkshire Hathaway, etc, etc.

Not to mention the vast natural resources and growing population.

Why do you think the world values repatriation of US investments (which would be denominated in USDs)?

You dont seem to understand what repatriation is.

Why do you think the world buys US debt?

Due of underperformance by Japan and Europe and a need by third world people to hide their money from political turmoil.

At some point you have to go beyond the generic official incomplete story and ask yourself why. Why is the US allowed to violate the most basic of macroeconomic principles which every other nation on the planet is beholden to?

The US isnt violating any macroeconomic principle, eventually the chickens are going to come home to roost.

You have failed also to provide evidence of why oil prices and dollar strength tend to be inversely correlated and you claim that its arab oil what loans money to the US, yet its China and Japan which are both oil starving nations the ones that have the most USD securities.