How do you define "Prime" in MMA?

[Threetrees]

Have you considered the wild possibility that he was lying to play the hype game/psych himself up, or that alternatively, he could simply be wrong?

GSP's movement, ability to change levels, cardio, etc...was way better towards the start of his second string of title fights than it was at the end and certainly better than when he came back at 185.

Well every mma fighter who has ever lived basically thinks they are always in their prime until it becomes painfully obvious. Like I distinctly remember Chuck saying in an interview that he felt like he was still in his prime a week before he got killed by Shogun

 

[chinarice]

But GSP himself said, multiple times, with a straight face, that he is his prime right now.



This is the usual case of fans saying that their favourite fighter is "out of his prime" to protect him in internet forums.

I can tell pretty much everyone favourite fighters by entering these kind of threads and reading the comments, and I am not a mentalist.

GSP's prime ended after Shields. ACL surgery ended his prime. His explosiveness took a significant hit. Clear as day in the first TD he shot for on Condit.

 

[Threetrees]

As an example...

I'd say Chuck Liddell's PRIME was 2001/2002.

That was years before he actually achieved the peak of his career success.

Watch him fight Belfort and others early on.. and his movement/timing/use of kicks etc was light years better than 2005 when he got a belt.

(that also gives some extra-credit to Rampage for the 2003 Pride win)

See now this is very interesting

 

[TheAmericanGazelle]

Well every mma fighter who has ever lived basically thinks they are always in their prime until it becomes painfully obvious. Like I distinctly remember Chuck saying in an interview that he felt like he was still in his prime a week before he got killed by Shogun

Yes.

It's really weird when posters on this forum take everything a fighter says as literally true/honest in the most autistic and literal ways possible.

It's almost like they have never played a sport in their lives and don't understand the mental aspect of sports at all.

 

[TheMaster]

When your attributes, skills and experience synchronize to optimize your abilities and performance for a sustained period, which before or afterwhich cannot be attained.

 

[TheAmericanGazelle]

I agree with all of these but would bet my bottom dollar that many fans of all of these guys (except Hendricks as many think he won) would say they were not in their prime anymore upon these losses. If Max loses his next fight, I fully expect these types of posts to begin.

Tons of people said Aldo wasn't in his prime when he fought Conor.

The reason why is that some fans mentally anchor primes around wins, and treat all performances within "wins" as if they are equal on a performance front.

That can be true, but certainly doesn't have to be. Especially if you start from a super high place, you can rack up wins while fighting in a declined state. It's just that the gap closes, fights get less decisive, perhaps you have fewer finishes, have less of a damage differential, etc...

I don't think Aldo was wildly past his prime (I think he was a half-step past it), but I do think the Aldo at the end of the WEC/start of the UFC was better relatively speaking than the version circa late 2015.

 

[ferrisjso]

When they are winning fights and younger than 35. No matter how well a fighters doing after 35 hard to say that's their physical prime. Like with Randy his success came in his 40's but that's not cause it was his prime. In most primes think it's late 20's(remember some analyst said human prime is 27 but that's younger than almost all top fighters), about 30 but MMA there seems to be a curve cause fighters being dominant past 35 is somewhat common. In basketball for example, LeBron or Jordan playing at a high level at age 34,35 is seen as a miracle and all LeBron's elite draft class peers(Bosh, Wade and Melo) who are also going to the Hall of Fame have had their careers end.

Also style plays a part in it. Some strengths age better than others. Wrestlers for example I've noticed tend to age far better. Randy, DC, Tito etc have all aged really well without a sharp decline in skills. Fighter IQ and punching power are things that also don't really get effected by age. This is why I think AS could have been champ to this day if his competition didn't get bigger and better cause aging 10 years really wouldn't effect his strengths all that much. It's why Hendo stuck around so long. That Bisping nuke was when Hendo was about 40 years old and that war with Shogun was when Hendo was even older than that.

It's also hard to identify prime in MMA cause the sport is young and fighters got so much better so much quicker. How can you tell the difference between a guy in his "prime" fighting better people than he used to and a washed up legend?

 

[Summoning]

Dont tell me you eat your steaks well done

juicy and cooked.

In Argentina we grill with embers for a long time. Not with flames.

Spoiler

 

[Only Here for Attachments]

Highest net level of fighting ability and performance. Peak athletic performance, peak speed, peak reflexes, peak mental game, etc.

 

[Threetrees]

When they are winning fights and younger than 35. No matter how well a fighters doing after 35 hard to say that's their physical prime. Like with Randy his success came in his 40's but that's not cause it was his prime. In most primes think it's late 20's(remember some analyst said human prime is 27 but that's younger than almost all top fighters), about 30 but MMA there seems to be a curve cause fighters being dominant past 35 is somewhat common. In basketball for example, LeBron or Jordan playing at a high level at age 34,35 is seen as a miracle and all LeBron's elite draft class peers(Bosh, Wade and Melo) who are also going to the Hall of Fame have had their careers end.

Also style plays a part in it. Some strengths age better than others. Wrestlers for example I've noticed tend to age far better. Randy, DC, Tito etc have all aged really well without a sharp decline in skills. Fighter IQ and punching power are things that also don't really get effected by age. This is why I think AS could have been champ to this day if his competition didn't get bigger and better cause aging 10 years really wouldn't effect his strengths all that much. It's why Hendo stuck around so long. That Bisping nuke was when Hendo was about 40 years old and that war with Shogun was when Hendo was even older than that.

It's also hard to identify prime in MMA cause the sport is young and fighters got so much better so much quicker. How can you tell the difference between a guy in his "prime" fighting better people than he used to and a washed up legend?

Also mma is unique in that the level of wear and tear pre high level competition varies. Players of most other sports have essential the same tracks of their contemporaries, let's take basketball they all play AAU, they all play high school, now a days the best play one or two years of college(generally one) and they all get drafted around the same age. So there is variance in when guys slow down, but careers largely follow a familiar trend after correcting for peak potential - guys start okay, get better, learn the nuances and reach their peak 5-7 years in typically, maintain for 4 or 5 years years then start to drop off typically around season 13 or something. They stick around for a couple more years and then retire.

MMA is so different, guys have different childhood experiences, take different tracts throughcollege, some guys are amateur others arent, some guys start at 30 some at 18 etc

 

[Bubblun]

Have you considered the wild possibility that he was lying to play the hype game/psych himself up, or that alternatively, he could simply be wrong?

GSP's movement, ability to change levels, cardio, etc...was way better towards the start of his second string of title fights than it was at the end and certainly better than when he came back at 185. That's obvious simply from the eye test, not to mention coming back from meaningful injuries.

It's not like the guy was lazy and ill-prepared back in the day. He was hyper-focused and prepared back then. He is now, except with more mileage, way more wear-and-tear, residual from injuries, and in the case of his last fight, extra weight that probably didn't suit him.

Well, good news I am a huge fan of GSP and his team, just not a blind nut hugger like most people, and I am obsessed about mma and sport performance, so I bookmarked a bunch of past interviews of him and his coaches about all kind of topics, including this one.

Firas Zahabi saying the same thing, listen to minute 4 and 30 seconds in this video



"The GSP of 2018 would best GSP of 2013".

Listen to GSP in these interviews, do you think he is lying for the sole reason to hype a fight?



Right at the beginning :"during the time off I had time to put my knowledge, all my techniques together.. I am much better.. in training I know I am much better version of what I was ..."

At minute 2 and 25 seconds :".. I don't want to come back just to come back, I want to come back if I am batter than I was, because the sport has improved as well ... the sport will catch up to you, you need to reinvent yourself.."



"I am not gonna be the old GSP, if I come back as the old GSP I am gonna have a very bad night the night of the fight, if I come back is because my trainers and my training partners are all convinced I am a better version than I was when I used to compete... I believe right now I have reached the perfect peak of athleticism, knowledge and wisdom as a fighter ..."



30 seconds in the video "... if I come back as the old GSP, GSP going to have his butt kicked, so I have to come back as a better GSP, with more creativity, I gonna have to come back with more creativity, better reaction, better tools and more opportunist.."

And minute 2 and 35 seconds " ... I have a few fights left in me, I don't want to do this until I reach the peak on the way down, now I am in my prime, I know it, my trainers knows it, training partners know it .."



Again, 30 seconds in this video: " .. I am at my best, in my prime, I would regret not doing this ... "


But if you listen to every GSP interview in the last 2-3 years he says the same things, he is in his prime right now, he is physically, technically and wisdom wise at his best, but he isn't going to be for long, so if the UFC can make the fights that interest him and elevate his legacy (Khabib) he is going to fight, if not, he is retired.

 

[jeremyemilio]

And how do you evaluate when a fighter had left it

Murky, I know.
But i typically see Prime as imagining a person is at pr near their athletic peak, and trying to figure out where that intersects most closely with the time a fighter is at our near their technical peak.
For some fighters it's easier than others, for other guys who either start the sport late or are late bloomers like DC for the former or Anderson Silva for the latter its tougher.

It cant be defined, though, simply as when a person was most successful with regards to career accomplishments because then we are just saying that whenever they were champion that's their prime and whenever they lost they left it.

Or I mean you could describe it that way. But that's really uninteresting.

I try to look at it as when a fighters style changes in such a way to mask physical deficits that they otherwise didnt have. A person refusing to lead, a kicker not throwing kicks, a pressure chain wrestler turning into a one shot kinda guy


What say you

I actually like your last paragraph here. Lots of good examples.

Anderson stopped leading long before he lost to Weidman, but I feel he stopped leading for a reason.

The H-Bomb was clearly an adaptation developed once Decision Dan no longer had a decision left in him.

Fedor's head hunting didn't emerge out of nowhere, either.

I'd add to that idea, though, with the recognition that some guys lose a step and don't adapt, but just can't pull of the things they could before with the same sort of regular success. Roy Jones Jr and Anthony Pettis come to mind.

Also, if you're lucky enough to reach a high level sort of skillful violence while still having a young and undamaged body, you can throw yourself into all sorts of fires with the confidence that you'll be able to scramble yourself out of trouble if things happen to go awry. Those sorts of guys can look like human buzzsaws for a while (a la Grand Prix champ, Shogun)... but anyone thinking that sort of style and and success can last for any lengthy period is delusional.

 

[Bubblun]

GSP's prime ended after Shields. ACL surgery ended his prime. His explosiveness took a significant hit. Clear as day in the first TD he shot for on Condit.

In his last fight I saw GSP knocking down the middleweight champion, and GSP never had big power in his punches before at welterweight, and he did it with a left hook, a punch he never used effectively in the past.
Even the punches he missed had knockout power all over it, I guess training with Roach had something to do with it.

He also easily took down Bisping, people say a lot of things about Bisping but he isn't easy to take down a control on the ground, just look at his fight against Sonnen.
GSP has been working with Danaher and the Death Squad a lot, he is sharp on the ground, and like he says, opportunist, and soon he had the opportunity to finish Bisping with a choke, he did it.
According to Gordon Ryan, the whole sequence on the ground was exactly how Danaher predicted it, including the finish.

 

[jeremyemilio]

Well, good news I am a huge fan of GSP and his team, just not a blind nut hugger like most people, and I am obsessed about mma and sport performance, so I bookmarked a bunch of past interviews of him and his coaches about all kind of topics, including this one.

Firas Zahabi saying the same thing, listen to minute 4 and 30 seconds in this video



"The GSP of 2018 would best GSP of 2013".

Listen to GSP in these interviews, do you think he is lying for the sole reason to hype a fight?



Right at the beginning :"during the time off I had time to put my knowledge, all my techniques together.. I am much better.. in training I know I am much better version of what I was ..."

At minute 2 and 25 seconds :".. I don't want to come back just to come back, I want to come back if I am batter than I was, because the sport has improved as well ... the sport will catch up to you, you need to reinvent yourself.."



"I am not gonna be the old GSP, if I come back as the old GSP I am gonna have a very bad night the night of the fight, if I come back is because my trainers and my training partners are all convinced I am a better version than I was when I used to compete... I believe right now I have reached the perfect peak of athleticism, knowledge and wisdom as a fighter ..."



30 seconds in the video "... if I come back as the old GSP, GSP going to have his butt kicked, so I have to come back as a better GSP, with more creativity, I gonna have to come back with more creativity, better reaction, better tools and more opportunist.."

And minute 2 and 35 seconds " ... I have a few fights left in me, I don't want to do this until I reach the peak on the way down, now I am in my prime, I know it, my trainers knows it, training partners know it .."



Again, 30 seconds in this video: " .. I am at my best, in my prime, I would regret not doing this ... "


But if you listen to every GSP interview in the last 2-3 years he says the same things, he is in his prime right now, he is physically, technically and wisdom wise at his best, but he isn't going to be for long, so if the UFC can make the fights that interest him and elevate his legacy (Khabib) he is going to fight, if not, he is retired.

This sort of talk isn't confined to GSP, though... and it's not a false narrative, exactly.

However, athletics can be funny. People tend to underestimate the benefits of being young and healthy and full of testosterone.

Young kick returners in football serve for a really good example. You see these young guys come into the league and have this string of huge returns in their first year or two and you think "Wait until this guy develops and hits his prime." And then he gets stronger, and faster, and more experienced, and more aware, and smarter, and better in every way... but for some reason never matches those first one or two dozen games.

There's an intangible quality that comes with thinking you're Superman that makes you hell to deal with. Only young men are stupid enough to think they're Superman.

 

[TheAmericanGazelle]

post

So basically, you are going to believe statements from people with very clear and obvious reasons to lie and slant the truth (i.e.-self-serving reasons), but not what can be objectively seen with your eyes when he actually fights in cage?

Even if you want to discount what actually and objectively happens in the cage, it should be obvious fighters don't get better in absolute terms with heavier mileage and post-serious injuries than they were prior to those things (at least immediately before those things). And that completely aligns with the eye test in GSP's specific case.

GSP at the end of his career was a classic "he lost a step or two, but he had several steps to lose" case. The gap between him and his closest peers in his prime was goofy huge. Today, that gap would shrink significantly.

 

[chinarice]

In his last fight I saw GSP knocking down the middleweight champion, and GSP never had big power in his punches before at welterweight, and he did it with a left hook, a punch he never used effectively in the past.
Even the punches he missed had knockout power all over it, I guess training with Roach had something to do with it.

He also easily took down Bisping, people say a lot of things about Bisping but he isn't easy to take down a control on the ground, just look at his fight against Sonnen.
GSP has been working with Danaher and the Death Squad a lot, he is sharp on the ground, and like he says, opportunist, and soon he had the opportunity to finish Bisping with a choke, he did it.
According to Gordon Ryan, the whole sequence on the ground was exactly how Danaher predicted it, including the finish.

Great win for Georges but neither Bisping or GSP were in their primes when they fought. Bisping wasn't in his prime when he beat Henderson, Silva and Rockhold by KO back to back to back either.

GSP may have got more power but he was slower and his cardio was shit compared to the past. He looked every bit of mid 30s with multiple acl surgeries in there.

 

[Blayt7hh]

Well there is physical prime which we know is in your late 20s. After that most guys reflexes start to slow and their cardio worsens. Reflexes going is why you see strikers usually not lasting as long as wrestlers. It also seems the lower weight classes suffer more from it.

Strength is the last thing to go. I don’t think you lose that until your 40s. A lot of guys reach their peak strength in the 30s. This is probably why we see so many older heavyweights. Reflexes are less important at that size and strength is more important.

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

Its definitely hard to judge when someones prime is because its a mixture of age, mileage, current quality of training and in some cases I think theres also a psychological element to it ie when someone loses their aura of invincibility (Fedor, Anderson, Ronda, Conor).and it seems to change both them and the way their opponents view them.

 

[Bubblun]

So basically, you are going to believe statements from people with very clear and obvious reasons to lie and slant the truth (i.e.-self-serving reasons), but not what can be objectively seen with your eyes when he actually fights in cage?

Even if you want to discount what actually and objectively happens in the cage, it should be obvious fighters don't get better in absolute terms with heavier mileage and post-serious injuries than they were prior to those things (at least immediately before those things). And that completely aligns with the eye test in GSP's specific case.

GSP at the end of his career was a classic "he lost a step or two, but he had several steps to lose" case. The gap between him and his closest peers in his prime was goofy huge. Today, that gap would shrink significantly.

What I saw with my own eyes is GSP knocking down Bisping with a left hook and then strangling him.
GSP was know for years to be the ultra dominant champion but not a finisher, and he finished the champion at 185.

So you can't get better at something or learn something different if you are 33-36? Good to know.



"Finally my coach Pat told me today that I slowly start to look like a gymnast… but I'm still terrible Have a great w-e everyone!"



GSP getting better at gymnastic and learning new skills over 35 years old, this is so crazy right?
For sure you don't get better at something lamenting you are past it and staying on the couch.

 

[jmsmma170]

Prime

Past prime