hopkins stance pros and cons?

[shs101]

Recently had a discussion at the boxing gym today about how Bernard Hopkins made the rear hand in front of the face a popular tactic but its still underrated or is it not worth it? I fight he common way where the rear hand is on the cheek area but I thought it would be interesting to try something new. What's your thoughts on this?

 

[Discipulus]

Bernard's stance is more than just the positioning of his hands.

He doesn't stand square and tall. He keeps his head off center-line and his weight more over his back foot. That way his head is already too far away to easily land a hook or a cross. So the only immediate threat is the opponent's jab. The hand in front of the face is there to pick off and parry jabs. He uses his lead shoulder to defend the other side of his head.

If you stand square with your head on center, it might be a bigger question of hand placement. It's easier to get around your glove when your head is so close to the opponent's lead hook.

 

[TheStrikingGuy]

I've really been getting in to B-hop lately, after years of not being too fond of him.

The rear hand in front of the face is a classic tactic of the old school.

If you watch Joe Louis or Ray Robinson their rear hand is almost always reaching forward to catch or stuff the jab. And they almost always carry their head off centre in the so called "blackburn crouch".

If anything I've always thought B-Hop fought fairly upright, making it easier to leap in with the right hand lead, which is nearly impossible from the head off centre crouching style of Robinson and Louis.

It should be noted that Louis had the most trouble with guys who caught him with long, wild left hooks. Perhaps due to getting complacent with the hand in front of his face.

 

[Sinister]

Hopkins was pretty vulnerable to right hands, but you had to have some kind of speed to pull it off. Roy Jones speed. He could disarm a lazier right hand like Kelly Pavlik's with relative ease. But he did this by first disarming the jab, and removing the timing of the right hand.

 

[Discipulus]

I'm seriously desperate for ways to have this kind of advantage in Muay Thai. Sinister, I know you haven't done kick fighting in a while, but is there any way to control the center line this way in Muay Thai? Or should my defense just be more reliant on keeping distance with my kicks? Because I get lit up by better boxers.

 

[dhester23]

Does anyone know if there's any pictures or videos anywhere online to show exactly where your feet and how your shoulders should be for this kind of stance. I know there's that picture above but it's only from the waist up so it's hard for me to judge where my feet should be and what angle they should be at. Thanks

 

[Sinister]

I can post a better photo, and answer Discipulus tomorrow.

 

[dhester23]

Thanks

 

[Handsy]

I'm seriously desperate for ways to have this kind of advantage in Muay Thai. Sinister, I know you haven't done kick fighting in a while, but is there any way to control the center line this way in Muay Thai? Or should my defense just be more reliant on keeping distance with my kicks? Because I get lit up by better boxers.

I actually was able to use it with some success today, albeit I was still gettin' kicked up more than I'd like, though that's more on my own ability or lack thereof, but I am also curious as to Sinister's advice on this, thanks in advance man.

 

[Sinister]

Here's a good photo that not only shows Hopkins' stance, but differentiates it from the square attack of De La Hoya:

Also, with regards to kicking, here's my thoughts:

- The weight being more towards the rear foot should make for easy checking of kicks, unless in a lowered stance. But that's where the principal of attacking upward at a guy standing tall TO kick could come in handy.

- One of the most efficient kickers I've ever seen was a Tae Kwon Do military instructor turned movie star, Hwang Jiang Lee. Hwang was known to use his lead leg like the lead hand of a boxer. No real power attacks, just flicking attacks to get the opponent off-balance, power attacks were concentrated with the rear leg. This makes sense when applied to a proper boxing stance as well. The Thai's MUST have realized this at some point, because the teep is designed just like a very efficient jab.

- Control of the center line is all about angle of attack. The angles don't have to be exactly the same. But there have to be two things in-place: distraction, opening. One leads to another. Some guys give false openings, so you use a tactic to distract them and create a real one. Some guys give NO openings, so you distract them to create any opening at all.

Think about this:

As many of you know I studied for years under Mike McCallum, and am now working with Merqui Sosa. Every trainer you'll come across will say slightly different things, as they have different experiences. Sosa never made it as far as Mike did, but he was a ranked fighter for a long time. One thing he recently said to a guy was this: "If your opponent is ready for you, why are you going to attack him straight on? I look at him, he's looking right at me, his defense is up...oh man, he's ready. If I go straight to him, I'm gonna get hit. So I change the angle, you can't go right at him...go somewhere else."

This should apply in nearly any form of unarmed combat. Just be sure your distractions and attacks end up exploiting an opening at the center line, and there you have it.

 

[Discipulus]

That makes a lot of sense. I think that a stance not unlike Bernard's would do well in Muay Thai, in fact. He still stands fairly upright. It's more about a slight bit of upper body positioning and weight distribution than anything else. And I already like to keep that front foot light. I love my teeps and checks.

Thanks a lot man. Very good advice.

 

[Handsy]

Ahh...

Makes absolute sense.

My coach is "forcing" me to stand square, and blast straight through, to take the shots off of my arms/gloves. I'm not the biggest fan but I don't argue with him.

I have been working on fighting more intelligently, fighting my opponent's mind instead, creating openings through feints and lighter shots, as well as my own angle for my opponent to attack. Sometimes I still get struck with the opening I planned to use as bait but that's practice I guess.

I absolutely have to work on changing angles of attack on my opponent.

I also like the upward kicking with the front leg, being light on it makes it ore natural anyway. I will definitely be working on these.

Thanks a lot Sinister, your posts, experience and perspective have really evolved my game in both the subtle and not so subtle ways that make the major differences.

 

[Sinister]

I know some Muay Thai instructors are all about the war of attrition, Hell some Boxing instructors are as well. But that's force, not craft. If a guy is durable, sure he could stand there and try to be a tank. Arthur Abraham, Winky Wright, and numerous others made whole careers out of it. Then there are the ones who don't block, Librado Andrade, Toni Margarito, etc.

I just don't think that was the idea behind Boxing as a craft, or any "art" of combat. Wrestling isn't about strength, fencing isn't about who has the better sword, etc. Craft is about technique, and how to apply it while minimizing sustained damage. Control of the other person.

 

[Handsy]

I couldn't agree more.

I respect durability, as well as wars of attrition as much as the next guy (hell, I started that way. In a thread you mentioned you must learn how to fight, whether you came in tough or athletic..I was in the former and loved to go blow for blow if need be before I educated and refined myself to be honest).

However, I fully appreciate the craft and art of unarmed combat, in whatever form. Control, absolutely. That's what makes a master a master, is it not? I am not a fan of wrecklessness,

That's why I love Freddie Roach's quote "There should be no luck involved in boxing." (Took it straight out of the Charley Burley video)

 

[Bay Area]

I know some Muay Thai instructors are all about the war of attrition, Hell some Boxing instructors are as well. But that's force, not craft. If a guy is durable, sure he could stand there and try to be a tank. Arthur Abraham, Winky Wright, and numerous others made whole careers out of it. Then there are the ones who don't block, Librado Andrade, Toni Margarito, etc.
.

This maybe true, but the best strikers that I have come accross have been forged from stone (mainly MT, Kyokushin etc) The ones that take a hit, and slowly continue to plod forward. They are built to the point that it hurts to kick their check. And the MT gyms that I have attended stressed this type of conditioning.

 

[Sinister]

Conditioning is conditioning. The ability to fight is the ability to fight. If you want an overview of that approach, I could give it. Let's just say it's enviable, but not optimal to be that type of fighter. And being great through that approach is far more rare than it is to learn the craft and build a career using the tools to build one.

 

[Discipulus]

There are plenty of guys in Muay Thai who have kick checks like brick walls and are impossible to push back, but are still hard to hit. It's about timing, and I think having an intelligent stance only makes timing easier.

My only problem is I have trouble keeping that stance without getting too bladed with my legs. I naturally keep the weight on the back, but still tend to stand square.

 

[Sinister]

It's all about shoulder and hip alignment, not foot and hand placement.

 

[Handsy]

This maybe true, but the best strikers that I have come accross have been forged from stone (mainly MT, Kyokushin etc) The ones that take a hit, and slowly continue to plod forward. They are built to the point that it hurts to kick their check. And the MT gyms that I have attended stressed this type of conditioning.

I feel you, man. Those are some of the toughest opponents to work. When I first ran into guys like that, I wanted to be that way. Forged of stone, always moving forward (defense intact of course, but not really giving too much in the way of angles.)

However, I like to think in extremes i.e. I am going to run into the Terminator fighter. How do I go head to head? Sure, maybe I'll smash him, but I like to preserve myself as much as I can while dealing out damage. I believe craft and smooothness will prevail in such a situation. If I run into a Muay Thai death machine from the hell pits of Thailand, I'd rather limit his weapons while I maximize my own.


I am all for conditioning your body to take shots, but why take unnecessary blows?

 

[Bay Area]

If I run into a Muay Thai death machine from the hell pits of Thailand,

lol.