...honor code to grappling?

[Kforcer]

Currently, I roll around intermediately with former wrestling or grappling-interested compadres in my spare time and during the school year, attend a very cool newazza-centric judo dojo. Well, as alot of you know, I used to wrestle in high school and middle school and dabbled in a bit of freestyle during college.

So when I first went to the dojo, I actually did pretty well against the more experienced members of the dojo, using what I'd picked up on from the bits and pieces of submission-grappling I've been exposed to(mostly from watching MMA of course but also from a brief time where I trained with a pro-fighter who was preparing to fight with a wrestler in--I believe--Danger Zone, though I have to say he taught me precious little) and above all, my basic wrestling takedowns. I didn't go throw for throw barely at all...closest I came when I first started attending to even TRYING a throw was baiting them with an overhook to set up a fireman's.

Eventually, however, some of the concerned blackbelts realized that even though my propensity to shoot takedowns made me a much more competitive randori(sparring) partner for them, I wasn't learning the judo throws for jack. So anyway, they decided that until I started getting the throws down, I wasn't to go shooting takedowns, even the fireman's. I was just to focus on learning the throws. This shit was definitely frustrating as hell and at points I even considered skipping all the practices that focused on stand-up and simply attending the newazza-centered ones.

Through all this though, there was a particularly cool teacher that was always there to give me advice and help in my struggles to become a judoka. One particularly cool memory is when during a match, I was working for the rear choke on a friendly rival of mine, only for him to defend competently enough that I doubted whether or not I could sink before being forced to stand-up by the referee. My coach talked me through it and I actually managed to sink the choke and tap him.

Well, the whole point of this ramble is that one day in practice, I was pissed and frustrated about women issues, school issues, everything...and then, when randori began, found my frustrations coupled by my incompetency at throwing. So...me and my coach find ourselves matched up...and suddenly I'm like..."Fuck it." And I just started working for whatever takedowns I can get, hitting several and on one occasion managing to get in a rear-naked on him. Afterwards though...I kind of felt like a horse's ass. Here was a guy who'd worked with me, who'd stuck with me when I was a total newbie to judo...who always did his best to give me confidence and what not...and somehow, I felt like I had betrayed him. Like...I was showing him that I didn't like or respect him enough to allow myself to go throw for throw with him like I was supposed to (remember, they'd banned me from takedowns so I could learn the throws) and get dominated but that I saw him as an opponent that I'd do anything to take out. One of my coaches was watching and basically told me--man to man, in private--that he thought what I did was the equivalent of a temper tantrum and that I should have the humility to allow myself to be put in situations where I may have to get my ass-kicked using unfamiliar techniques in order to learn.

I definitely feel like what I did WAS immature on some level...as though I had somehow shown a lack of honor, respect and maturity. My roommate--who was also into grappling and wrestling and attended the dojo with me--was actually like, "Fuck that shit. They just don't want us to be able to compete with them because we're white belts." I don't know...what do you all think? I suppose its pretty clear I was in the wrong...but do you think what I did constituted a level of "dishonor" or even betrayal of my coach?

 

[The Sickness]

Tough call. I am just beginning my judo journey, but have been training jiu jitsu for almost four years. I also wrestle, so I am not lost when it comes to standing. I just don't feel as comfortable with the throws. I was very honest with my sensei coming in. He knows my background and embraces it fully. He knows I still train jiu jitsu, and when it comes to rolling, he likes me to share as much as I am willing, even though it looks funny to see a whitebelt teaching a blackbelt. I have tapped two of the instructors, and managed a few double legs on them, but have also managed to get my ass tossed more times than I can count. I don't really have a point, but perhaps being open and honest with your coach about the incident, instead of pretending it didn't happen, would be the best way to go...

 

[LCDforMe]

Shit man, sounds like you are really thinking about this. I don't think that it's a huge deal, just talk to your coach (the one who helped you through everything else) and see what he has to say. If you tell him everything you said to us, then I'm sure he'll talk to you and you guys will work it out. Relax man, it's just judo. You're there to have fun and get a workout.

 

[Darwinist]

Remember, one of the hallmarks of Judo is "Jito Kotei(sp?)" - "Mutual welfare and benefit". This is an attitude that should be one of the guiding lights of all grappling schools, not just Judo ones. You say that your school is a very cool one - so I

 

[aaron_mag]

I think there should be a camradarie to a grappling class. There shouldn't be any hard feelings in a group. You have to trust each other a lot because you will eventually be in a position of total vulnerability (when you are submitted) with your training partners.

I always try to make a point of thanking everyone I rolled with/drilled with after my Sambo class...

That being said I think you should just shake your coaches hand and let bygones be bygones. I don't think he'll make a big deal about it. That is also part of the camradarie (or should be). I think everyone understands that sometimes people are just stressed out. Don't lose to much sleep over it.

 

[Balto]

Well sometimes that stuff happens. You were in the wrong, and I can tell from your post that you realize that. Obviously you don't want to lose your temper in that way, but again sometimes it just happens.

Learn from the experience. Just let your coach know you're sorry and that you were having a bad day. As a martial arts instructor, I am almost positive he will understand completely. In fact, he probably understood completely as soon as you started doing it.

 

[OldSkool]

Your question, "I suppose its pretty clear I was in the wrong...but do you think what I did constituted a level of "dishonor" or even betrayal of my coach?"

The dishonor was to yourself by breaking the agreement to practice just the Judo throws, no biggie just stand by your word from now on.

Continue to train as they want you to, not that you have to become an expert but so you can understand the principles of the Judo throws and not just think and react as a wrestler. At that point you will have a view and understanding that you will be able to blend the two styles.

You will then have their respect, and then any good martial artist will work with you to blend the two. Then improving both yours and their stand up game.


Im a primariarly a BJJ guy with some Judo background[my father learned his Judo at the Kodokan] I took some take down classes from Casey Strand a very accomplished college wrestler. He was so smooth and effective but I mentioned to him that he had some movements that reminded me of Judo, and asked him why he didnt seem like his style was a pure wrestler. Turns out his college coach was an old Judo guy who had blended the two very well.

BTW, Casey Strand is the only guy I have seen take down David Terrell in practice.


You sound like a really good guy, keep your honor by keeping your word, your on the right track.

 

[Sauron]

I trust my sparring partners not to hurt me

Other than that i don't mind what style they use, whether they beat me down or let me get certain things. A little bit on anger never did anyone any harm as long as it is controlled.

 

[BJJ>wrestling]

This is some good feedback.

 

[dutchmasterj3]

The one person you must respect are your training partners. When I first got to class I would get frustrated being tapped out all the time.

I soon learned that the calmer I am when I roll, the better I do, as it allows me to think clearly instead of trying to meat out and overpower other guys.

 

[Kforcer]

Hey, thanks for all the responses you guys. You all kick ass. Its funny, I've been on these boards so long...but this is the first time Sherdog's felt like an extended brotherhood.

I guess part of my problem is that I just don't enjoy engaging in judo throws as much as I like shooting takedowns and fighting for submissions...wrestling, grappling for submissions, lifting weights, doing gymnastics or callistenics...that stuff is theraputic...its like, its something I can transfer all my crazy, built-up angst and anxiety into. When I'm working on judo throws...for the most part, I'm no more emotionally attached to it than I am to, say, basketball or something. Even when I score an ippon off something other than a fireman's or a wrestling takedown and even if its on a blackbelt...its sort of like, "Okay, cool...moving on." On the other hand, if tap someone out...or if I hit a good single-leg...or say, get in a good set on the bench or curls or what not...its like I'm on top of the world.

So if I go to the dojo and I'm feeling steamed about something...just practicing throws doesn't do as much to throw off that steam for me...

Anyway though...thanks again, all of you. This was some shit I wanted to get off my chest for a long time. You all really are bros.

 

[Kforcer]

Then correct the karmic balance by teaching some newbie a killer swing single

Man, I used to love that takedown. Haven't shot one of those in forever...funny how some stuff that was once second-nature to you, you just end up forgetting about. Strangely enough, in youth wrestling, I used to LOVE the hiptoss...and now, my upperbody throws all suck, at least, so long as I'm going against some decent.

 

[colinm]

your coach should thank you for taking him down and submitting him...im being serious. he has to deal with wrestlers in competition, so why not learn from you? i understand where the "no wrestling takedowns" rule works for you, but im sure he gets more out of being dominated with wrestling moves than dominating you with his judo. i beleive in an honor code for grappling, but i dont exactly see how this applies. i just shake my partners hand and tell him thank you after rolling, with more enthusiasm if he beat the ever-living shit out of me, tore down my ego, and inspired me to train harder and get better.

 

[Bubble Boy]

Kforcer, just want to clarify something about your original post. When you're saying trading throw for throw, are you talking about Kata Randori, i.e., your partner throws, and then you throw, then your partner, etc? Essentially you take turns throwing one another. Or were you matched up for pure Randori? If you were matched up for Kata Randori, and you were throwing (or in your case shooting) out of turn, then that would be really bad. If you were doing pure Randori and just blew off what your instructors were telling you, then that's not as bad. But it's still bad.
There's a good chance that your instructor is in an educational mode when matched up against you for Randori. If you come blasting out of the gates doing crazy shit outside "the rules", at least as established specifically for you, then you put him in a bad position. First, as said before, he's in educational mode, not "kick the newbs ass" mode. Second, he's simply caught off guard. His mindset is, "He's not going to shoot, so I only have to defend upstairs..." Third, he was probably a little confused by the dimissal of the rules by you. He may have been wondering if another instructor lifted the "shoot" ban on you. He may have thought you had a personal issue with him. All those things come into play.

Your post reminded me of an ugly scene at a Judo club I attend a year or so ago. The instructor was teaching pins. He was using a variety of students for this. About halfway through class he picked a guy to demonstrate Kesa Gatame. The guy picked obviously had grappling experience from somewhere else, as I recall. The instructor had the guy lay on his back, and the instructor was slowly, step by step getting into a good Kesa Gatame hold down, explaining things to the other students as he went along. The guy being pinned seemed to be not really cooperating, even though this was for demostration purposes only, by shifting his hips out, or blocking with his arms. The instructor finally cinched in the pin real nice and said something like "This can be a pretty decent pin. It can be difficult to escape from if done correctly." Apparently the white belt being "pinned" thought this was a cue of some sort and, as the instructor was looking around at the students and gesturing with his hand, the student suddenly went ballistic trying to escape. The instructor was completely suprised and got rolled over so that the student was on top. The student kind of stood up over the instructor for a second like "How ya' like that mother fucker." The instructor told eveyone to practice and then called the guy over and they talked for about five minutes.

Don't be that guy.

 

[Kforcer]

Kforcer, just want to clarify something about your original post. When you're saying trading throw for throw, are you talking about Kata Randori, i.e., your partner throws, and then you throw, then your partner, etc? Essentially you take turns throwing one another. Or were you matched up for pure Randori?

Oh, it was definitely pure randori, man. You're right, if I was doing that in kata randori, that'd be fucking idiotic and insane. As you say its bad anyways, but this was pure randori. To in a half-assed defense of myself, he certainly wasn't treating me with kid's gloves. I'm one of less than a handful of white belts that sticks around to train with their competitive team during the intensive session after our basic practice and--like any competitive team's randori I'd guess--its pretty rough.

In fact, I think they make SURE to go hard on me just so that I don't come away thinking anyone's a push-over after I tapped, pinned and ipponed some members of the competitive team in my first couple of practices. Especially at the point when they weren't sure if--even though I was polite and all--I was a guy looking to learn and be a student there or just some "tough guy" looking for something to brag about. At that point, I didn't really know myself and my roommate's arrogant attitude probably didn't help much either (he was constantly letting everyone know about his wrestling credentials and IMO, vastly exaggerating his grappling credentials). During that time, going to the intensive practice was like going to war basically. Of course, eventually that changed when they and I both realized what I was after there...but I wouldn't say even then that they necessarily softened up. They did start trying to teach me rather than just beat me though.

Somehow, I think that what went down that practice may've had some affect on my coach because not only was I lectured about my proper place by another coach, but afterwards in the locker room, the coach I was rolling with had his head down and look like he was really thinking about something. When I came in, he was like, "Hey, how you doing?"

I was like, "Still struggling with those throws."

And he said, "Well, you sure through me around."

Pretty damn awkward. BUT...it won't happen again. At the same time, I think I'm gonna have to find somewhere else to practice my takedowns. My coaches are like, "Your wrestling will always be there." In truth however, I find they've gotten progessively sloppier after I stopped using them in judo.

But you know, maybe there really is a big difference between just going to a class and training, being on a wrestling team, going to freestyle practices...and being part of a dojo. I'm thinking the latter might require a little more patience in some areas.

 

[Jinzumkei]

Currently, I roll around intermediately with former wrestling or grappling-interested compadres in my spare time and during the school year, attend a very cool newazza-centric judo dojo. Well, as alot of you know, I used to wrestle in high school and middle school and dabbled in a bit of freestyle during college.

So when I first went to the dojo, I actually did pretty well against the more experienced members of the dojo, using what I'd picked up on from the bits and pieces of submission-grappling I've been exposed to(mostly from watching MMA of course but also from a brief time where I trained with a pro-fighter who was preparing to fight with a wrestler in--I believe--Danger Zone, though I have to say he taught me precious little) and above all, my basic wrestling takedowns. I didn't go throw for throw barely at all...closest I came when I first started attending to even TRYING a throw was baiting them with an overhook to set up a fireman's.

Eventually, however, some of the concerned blackbelts realized that even though my propensity to shoot takedowns made me a much more competitive randori(sparring) partner for them, I wasn't learning the judo throws for jack. So anyway, they decided that until I started getting the throws down, I wasn't to go shooting takedowns, even the fireman's. I was just to focus on learning the throws. This shit was definitely frustrating as hell and at points I even considered skipping all the practices that focused on stand-up and simply attending the newazza-centered ones.

Through all this though, there was a particularly cool teacher that was always there to give me advice and help in my struggles to become a judoka. One particularly cool memory is when during a match, I was working for the rear choke on a friendly rival of mine, only for him to defend competently enough that I doubted whether or not I could sink before being forced to stand-up by the referee. My coach talked me through it and I actually managed to sink the choke and tap him.

Well, the whole point of this ramble is that one day in practice, I was pissed and frustrated about women issues, school issues, everything...and then, when randori began, found my frustrations coupled by my incompetency at throwing. So...me and my coach find ourselves matched up...and suddenly I'm like..."Fuck it." And I just started working for whatever takedowns I can get, hitting several and on one occasion managing to get in a rear-naked on him. Afterwards though...I kind of felt like a horse's ass. Here was a guy who'd worked with me, who'd stuck with me when I was a total newbie to judo...who always did his best to give me confidence and what not...and somehow, I felt like I had betrayed him. Like...I was showing him that I didn't like or respect him enough to allow myself to go throw for throw with him like I was supposed to (remember, they'd banned me from takedowns so I could learn the throws) and get dominated but that I saw him as an opponent that I'd do anything to take out. One of my coaches was watching and basically told me--man to man, in private--that he thought what I did was the equivalent of a temper tantrum and that I should have the humility to allow myself to be put in situations where I may have to get my ass-kicked using unfamiliar techniques in order to learn.

I definitely feel like what I did WAS immature on some level...as though I had somehow shown a lack of honor, respect and maturity. My roommate--who was also into grappling and wrestling and attended the dojo with me--was actually like, "Fuck that shit. They just don't want us to be able to compete with them because we're white belts." I don't know...what do you all think? I suppose its pretty clear I was in the wrong...but do you think what I did constituted a level of "dishonor" or even betrayal of my coach?

I was in a similar situatiion back when I was in college. I had a couple guys I could train with regularly, but when they weren't around I would go to the Judo club because they were very open to rolling. The most importaant thing for me was to respect their dojo and their instructors. I wasn't all to interested in Randori (plus like you, i sucked at it), so lots of times when they did Randori I owuld just sit on the side and observe or work individually work with some one who wanted to learn some ground techniques. I was completely open to showing them things and learning things. Anyway, The Judo club and I developed a very friendly relationship (I even went to some Judo tournaments to support them) and I got to learn alot and improve my grappling game.

Eh Point is what you did was a little disrepectful even though you didnt have any real bad intentions behind them, I think what you did warrants an apology. As long as you're in their Dojo you have to be as respectful as possible.

 

[Kforcer]

I was in a similar situatiion back when I was in college. I had a couple guys I could train with regularly, but when they weren't around I would go to the Judo club because they were very open to rolling. The most importaant thing for me was to respect their dojo and their instructors. I wasn't all to interested in Randori (plus like you, i sucked at it), so lots of times when they did Randori I owuld just sit on the side and observe or work individually work with some one who wanted to learn some ground techniques. I was completely open to showing them things and learning things. Anyway, The Judo club and I developed a very friendly relationship (I even went to some Judo tournaments to support them) and I got to learn alot and improve my grappling game.

Eh Point is what you did was a little disrepectful even though you didnt have any real bad intentions behind them, I think what you did warrants an apology. As long as you're in their Dojo you have to be as respectful as possible.

I actually love randori...even if I am barred from takedowns, I love groundwork. For the most part its just when we're doing standing randori and I'm barred from takedowns that I get bored off my ass. Anyway, if it wasn't for the randori, I wouldn't have kept coming back to the dojo.

Thanks for sharing your experiences man and you are 100% correct in what you say in any case.