Holyfield drops💣— ‘Ali is not the best, I am!’

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Holyfield claims that because he's the only 4× heavyweight champ in history that it puts him above Ali at heavyweight. I think it's a tenuous claim at best. Only 2 of Holyfield's title reigns were as lineal champ and they were very short. In the rest of them he held alphabet titles. Ali was a 3× heavyweight champ but he was lineal on each occasion. Personally, I believe that having a single continuous or ‘unbroken’ championship reign is generally more impressive than having multiple title reigns because the latter means you lost your title(s) in the first place. You either vacated, temporarily retired, got stripped of your alphabet title(s), or simply lost them in the ring. Holyfield also neglected to mention that he fought in the three-belt era where there was an extra alphabet belt floating around while Ali fought in the two-belt era. Both beat several HOFers/ATGs but Ali was actually the best heavyweight of his era. Holyfield arguably wasn't even the second best heavyweight of his time.

As for Holyfield's second claim, he was indeed the first fighter to ever be crowned undisputed champ in more than one division. His achievement stood for decades until recently when Crawford, Inoue & Usyk also managed it in the four-belt era. To become two-division undisputed champs they were required to win an extra title in each division compared to Holyfield who did it in the three-belt era. Ali never fought in multiple divisions as a professional. He was a career heavyweight. Could he have replicated this feat himself? I don't know. I'd always be skeptical because not every fighter, no matter how great they're perceived to be, can afford to regularly give up many physical advantages. Especially if they're at an extreme disadvantage. It's always going to be a constant uphill battle for a much smaller fighter against the more capable & athletic big men at the top. Even if they're able to overcome it they'll often be forced to work a lot harder than usual just to pull out the win. Which is why in H2H fantasy match-ups I'd feel more confident in picking Lewis over a prime Mike Tyson, or Lewis over Usyk, etc. Size certainly isn't everything but it does play a role. We have weight classes for a reason. A good big man will beat a good little man more often than not—unless of course, that little man happens to be great.

So, is Holyfield just being a so-called ‘blasphemous’ hater toward Ali or does he actually have a point here?

 

[mozfonky]

I saw that interview on youtube a couple days ago. I love holyfield and he was an amazing fighter, near perfect technically, great athlete but there are a few things that go against him. He did roids, roids in baseball gets a guy an asterisk, whether it should in boxing or not, i'm not sure but it doesn't help his case. He also fought to the level of his comp, guys like Tyson, Ali or Lewis usually beat guys easily they were supposed to beat easily, holyfield was flakey in that regard. He also didn't have a long reign at any point, didn't beat all comers at any point. He's still a great fighter in my eyes and a handful for any heavyweight in history on his best night. Fast, sharp puncher, great chin, competive as hell and strong, not many fighters were able to outmuscle holyfield in there. He pushed Tyson around like a little boy.

No he's not the greatest and on a head to head basis should probably be in the top ten somewhere, on the historical, contextual basis, probably not. Lewis definitely will take his era from him whether he deserved it or not. Poor Holyfield had to be somewhat ringworn by the time he fought Lewis and there's no way he was what he was when he first won the Heavyweight title. On that night he may have been able to top Lennox but Lennox takes that era, fairly or unfairly.

As far as the rewinning of titles, it was considered a big deal in the division because no one was able to pull it off for nearly a hundred years before Patterson did it, never mind that Patterson was never considered a great champion and is overlooked today. Ali did it three times but never lost it in the ring the second time and should have never lost it to spinks, the credit he gets for the triple crown isn't worth all the people who say hes overrated because he lost to an amateur (and "should" have to shavers and norton and Jones and Young). Ali hurt his legacy by horsing around too much. Fortunately, he had the big wins, his dominant 60's reign otherwise he might just be another notable heavyweight from the era rather than the dominant figure of that era. His fame far overshadowed what he could still do by 76. It's ironic but by the time he was so accepted, he was pretty much through and should have been retired.

 

[Hagler]

From now on Evander should be protected from himself.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

I saw that interview on youtube a couple days ago. I love holyfield and he was an amazing fighter, near perfect technically, great athlete but there are a few things that go against him. He did roids, roids in baseball gets a guy an asterisk, whether it should in boxing or not, i'm not sure but it doesn't help his case. He also fought to the level of his comp, guys like Tyson, Ali or Lewis usually beat guys easily they were supposed to beat easily, holyfield was flakey in that regard. He also didn't have a long reign at any point, didn't beat all comers at any point. He's still a great fighter in my eyes and a handful for any heavyweight in history on his best night. Fast, sharp puncher, great chin, competive as hell and strong, not many fighters were able to outmuscle holyfield in there. He pushed Tyson around like a little boy.

No he's not the greatest and on a head to head basis should probably be in the top ten somewhere, on the historical, contextual basis, probably not. Lewis definitely will take his era from him whether he deserved it or not. Poor Holyfield had to be somewhat ringworn by the time he fought Lewis and there's no way he was what he was when he first won the Heavyweight title. On that night he may have been able to top Lennox but Lennox takes that era, fairly or unfairly.

As far as the rewinning of titles, it was considered a big deal in the division because no one was able to pull it off for nearly a hundred years before Patterson did it, never mind that Patterson was never considered a great champion and is overlooked today. Ali did it three times but never lost it in the ring the second time and should have never lost it to spinks, the credit he gets for the triple crown isn't worth all the people who say hes overrated because he lost to an amateur (and "should" have to shavers and norton and Jones and Young). Ali hurt his legacy by horsing around too much. Fortunately, he had the big wins, his dominant 60's reign otherwise he might just be another notable heavyweight from the era rather than the dominant figure of that era. His fame far overshadowed what he could still do by 76. It's ironic but by the time he was so accepted, he was pretty much through and should have been retired.

Overall, including his cruiserweight run, Holyfield was a bit more accomplished than Ali but he wasn't a better heavyweight. Ali has the stronger resume. Sure, we know that Holyfield used PEDs (at least later in his career) but as far as I'm aware he never actually failed a drug test. Ali though did fail a post-fight drug test after the Holmes fight for a stimulant and a pain killer. Depending on the source the first substance was either an amphetamine called Benzedrine or Didrex which are very similar. Codeine was also found in his system, which is an opiate, and additionally a thyroid medication was present. So I don't think that either man was above cheating. Dundee himself has admitted to cheating before like in the first Henry Cooper fight. I believe that the majority of top fighters are on at least some sort of PED if not a full stack of them. Some are just a lot better at hiding it (ie., microdosing, relying on masking agents, flushing, and so on).

 

[mozfonky]

Overall, including his cruiserweight run, Holyfield was a bit more accomplished than Ali but he wasn't a better heavyweight. Ali has the stronger resume. Sure, we know that Holyfield used PEDs (at least later in his career) but as far as I'm aware he never actually failed a drug test. Ali though did fail a post-fight drug test after the Holmes fight for a stimulant and a pain killer. Depending on the source the first substance was either an amphetamine called Benzedrine or Didrex which are very similar. Codeine was also found in his system, which is an opiate, and additionally a thyroid medication was present. So I don't think that either man was above cheating. Dundee himself has admitted to cheating before like in the first Henry Cooper fight. I believe that the majority of top fighters are on at least some sort of PED if not a full stack of them. Some are just a lot better at hiding it (ie., microdosing, relying on masking agents, flushing, and so on).

none of those are ped's, ali was a sick man before the holmes fight, none of the rest of this is worth even arguing with for me.

 

[mozfonky]

From now on Evander should be protected from himself.

He's a good man but like we've mentioned recently, many of those devout type christians use religion as a sort of cover up. Holyfield always was like that. His opponents were telling us how dirty he was for years, even before tyson and why would anyone ever believe TYSON about being dirty? By the time he had Rahman looking like the elephant man, even the most in denial fans had to admit Holyfield wasn't averse to bending the rules a little bit. His own ego, same thing for most fighters, but his ego was bigger than most fighters, caused him to fight on and on and on. It's a miracle he speaks as well as he does today. He had a long ammie career, I don't know how many ammie fights he had but I believe he was fighting ammie since he was a preteen so usually that means a lot, then that long, brutal pro career. Many fighters have been permanently damaged by much less.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

none of those are ped's, ali was a sick man before the holmes fight, none of the rest of this is worth even arguing with for me.

Amphetamines (stimulants) are PEDs. Opiates can be used to increase performance as well by dulling pain from previous training injuries and/or during the fight itself. They're not anabolic steroids but neither is EPO.

 

[mozfonky]

Amphetamines (stimulants) are PEDs. Opiates can be used to increase performance as well by dulling pain from previous training injuries and/or during the fight itself. They're not anabolic steroids but neither is EPO.

he was taking some sort of thyroid med and it wasn't to use as anything other than to lose weight. Ali, for all his great qualities, was dumb as a post in a lot of ways and he was sweet, he didn't like hurting people's feelings. I read a story that a doc conned him into wrapping his ankle up before a fight and it was the same idiot doc who tried to give Ali a concoction of some sort of high sugar drink before the zaire fight, and it was the same crooked doc that gave Ali the pills before zaire, the result was tragic, Ali didn't even sweat and that was very dangerous for him. No way in hell did that help him and that doctor should have had his ass beat and stripped of his credentials. No way was that drug a help to Ali in that fight, there was no help for him in that fight, the only thing it did was help him lose weight, which only left him weak and defenseless, you call that a ped I'll just not even entertain that.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

he was taking some sort of thyroid med and it wasn't to use as anything other than to lose weight. Ali, for all his great qualities, was dumb as a post in a lot of ways and he was sweet, he didn't like hurting people's feelings. I read a story that a doc conned him into wrapping his ankle up before a fight and it was the same idiot doc who tried to give Ali a concoction of some sort of high sugar drink before the zaire fight, and it was the same crooked doc that gave Ali the pills before zaire, the result was tragic, Ali didn't even sweat and that was very dangerous for him. No way in hell did that help him and that doctor should have had his ass beat and stripped of his credentials. No way was that drug a help to Ali in that fight, there was no help for him in that fight, the only thing it did was help him lose weight, which only left him weak and defenseless, you call that a ped I'll just not even entertain that.

If none of this stuff was considered a PED at the time then the Nevada State Athletic Commission never would've scheduled a hearing for him to attend. He no-showed and voluntarily gave up his boxing license if I recall. Ali claimed that he took some of this stuff, like the codeine, immediately after the fight (but before the post-fight drug test) to speed his recovery. I don't buy it at all. The stimulant use for weight loss though I do buy. He used it to get back into shape quickly to fight Holmes, or so we believe. At one point he was over 240 lbs and badly out of shape. Powerful stimulants like amphetamines don't just aid in weight loss they also boost your energy & significantly increase alertness. That's why they're classified as PEDs and are banned by the boxing commissions and anti-doping agencies like WADA.

 

[treelo]

Holyfield lost to Michael Moorer and John Ruiz

he needs to stop smoking crack

 

[Jonny Ninja]

He wasn’t even the best HW of his era, and that’s not even up for debate! He is an ATG imo though. Fantastic CW and was beating guys at HW far bigger than himself. He always looked absolutely terrifying in his ring Walks as well. One of the hardest looking MFs to ever pull on a pair of gloves

 

[mozfonky]

Holyfield lost to Michael Moorer and John Ruiz

he needs to stop smoking crack

lost to moorer, as champion let old Foreman and Holmes go the distance AND be somewhat competitive, got knocked down by cooper and then lost to Bowe. Again, when he had nothing to prove he dissapointed. Was impressive all the way to the HW title and then starts laying back, which a lot of fighters do. Holyfield had a rep as a workaholic and I know he worked hard but he must not have worked hard everytime or had his head screwed on right. Then, there are all the silly excuses, hurt shoulder, flu, like I said, he was flakey. That kinda worked for him because Bowe and Tyson both thought they'd be fighting the losing version of Holyfield and ended up losing themselves. But there again, he wins the Tyson fight, becomes the heroic good guy who beat the monsterous rapist thug and then he redeems himself against Moorer and then loses to legit great, Lewis. Spends the remainder of his career losing to a lot of guys that should have told him it was time to quit but could still surprise us here and there. The Toney fight was one of the flakier fights, ya, he was old and Toney is a great fighter but Evander looked like he just tanked it to me. I think he had some jive excuse after that one too but I can't remember what it was. Then, he actually comes back to beat that russian guy in most people's opinion, pretty incredible. That was Evander, he did some incredible stuff and a whole lot of flakey stuff.

 

[mozfonky]

He wasn’t even the best HW of his era, and that’s not even up for debate! He is an ATG imo though. Fantastic CW and was beating guys at HW far bigger than himself. He always looked absolutely terrifying in his ring Walks as well. One of the hardest looking MFs to ever pull on a pair of gloves

Evander looked terrifying? He did? I must have missed that. I guess he did but with his laidback interviews and lack of smack talk the glare he'd give really didn't convince me too much. As far as best of his era, I do think he was cheated kinda, and he cheated himself by being flakey. I think the version that beat Douglas may have beaten the version of Lennox that beat him. I remember Bert Sugar had a book on the 100 greatest fighters ever and he said something about taking a fighter on their best night. Now, that's a great idea but some guys just don't have enough great or good nights. If we could take some guys on their best nights, we might be ranking a lot of different fighters as atg's than we do because they were great for 1 or a few fights. Donald Curry was the bees knees in his prime and no one even talks about him today. Yes, people actually thought he could take on Hagler. Lots of guys like that. So, with all due respect to Bert Sugar, I'm not sure if taking a fighter on their best night is the way to go, maybe take them on a mix of their good and bad nights and maybe overlook some bad nights due to age. Oddly, even that seems superspecific.

 

[defjaam]

Vitor Belfort did more damage than I initially thought

 

[StewDogg11]

Holyfield lost to Michael Moorer and John Ruiz

he needs to stop smoking crack

Ali lost to Leon Spinks and Trevor Berbick…

 

[LEWIS540]

Discussing ATG and GOATs is always gonna lead to subjective.

Obviously Ali is very much in any conversation, but he seems to get far more bias treatment than most. His flaws are often overlooked, whereas those of his peers are often overemphasized.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

He wasn’t even the best HW of his era, and that’s not even up for debate! He is an ATG imo though. Fantastic CW and was beating guys at HW far bigger than himself. He always looked absolutely terrifying in his ring Walks as well. One of the hardest looking MFs to ever pull on a pair of gloves

That's what I said in the OP. Holyfield wasn't #1 in his era, Lewis was. Lewis beat Holyfield twice, realistically. It's even debatable that Holyfield deserved to be the #2 heavyweight back then because Bowe beat him in the trilogy. In Holyfield's mind being a 4× heavyweight champ is “obviously” better than being a 3× heavyweight champ & being a two-division undisputed champ is “obviously” better than being a single division undisputed champ. The last one isn't really a fair comparison since Ali never fought below heavyweight in the pros.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

Holyfield was just asked where Usyk rates all-time at heavyweight and he said Top 3. Apparently always being in shape is enough to be ranked that high? It just goes to show how many lazy heavyweight champs we've had historically. Holyfield's been hit in the head too many times. Usyk should be somewhere in the Top 15-20 and that's probably the highest you could go with his current resume at the weight.

 

[Kovalev's "Man Bag"]

We've seen some real hot takes from Holyfield lately but now it's Bruno's turn and he certainly didn't disappoint. Apparently he's under the impression that the heavyweights of his era were somehow naturally bigger men than today's. Is this some kind of joke or is he serious?

“I don’t think in my era he would have got this far. In his era, he’s done very well. I’m not being b****y when I say that, I’m only talking from the heart. He wouldn’t have stood [with the likes of Lennox Lewis]. They’re too big heavyweights for him, naturally big guys, you know.”

Frank Bruno Has No Doubt Who Wins Prime Lennox Lewis vs Usyk Fight: “He Wouldn’t Stand A Chance”