Heavyweights vs Middleweight,Light Heavyweight fighters

[glennrod]

No, it wouldn't be optimal. If it was the case they'd fight at HW.

Optimal =/= doable.

and by the way...I guess that weight would be optimal for me, and a few fighters out there, not necessarily that it should be the optimal weight for everyone. guys like hendo and vitor would definitely be at their best at that weight, rather than bulking up

 

[Conan Lerehcob]

that doesn't make sense considering the context of my post. what I am saying is that being around the 205 mark means you are still big enough to grapple with a lot of the HW's, but you would most likely be faster than most HW's. I am talking about a open weight fighting environment, not deciding what weight class you should fight in

I perfectly understood what you meant and this is why my point stand.

You can't have it both way. If being a LHW fighter with its advantages/disadvantages is not optimal for HW then neither it is for openweight.

Openweight simply means there's no weight limit and lighter fighters are sanctionned regardless of weight difference.

If the advantages LHW fighters already have were optimal and good enough to fight at HW instead, they wouldn't cut weight. Hence, it's not optimal for HW, so it's not either for openweight.

 

[BisexualMMA]

that doesn't make sense considering the context of my post. what I am saying is that being around the 205 mark means you are still big enough to grapple with a lot of the HW's, but you would most likely be faster than most HW's. I am talking about a open weight fighting environment, not deciding what weight class you should fight in

Really? Then why doesn't everyone make like Dan Henderson and fight in the heavyweight division at 206 lbs?

BECAUSE...they would be at a disadvantage.

Just because Hendo beat Fedor and Aoki beat Butterbean, etc., does not mean that this is how things go in general.

Could Martina Hingis beat me at tennis? Yes. Only a fool will then conclude that it is optimal to be a woman in order to play the best tennis.

 

[Conan Lerehcob]

and by the way...I guess that weight would be optimal for me, and a few fighters out there, not necessarily that it should be the optimal weight for everyone. guys like hendo and vitor would definitely be at their best at that weight, rather than bulking up

Well, that's a completely different topic then. Having an optimal weight for a specific fighter is a different discussion from "LHW being the optimal weight to fight at openweight."

 

[Ancient Warrior]

Size didn't really matter in the old days of the UFC, because there was such a disparity in talent.

Nowadays, size and weight makes a tremendous difference. Take boxing for example. There is so much competition around the world, that even a 5 lb difference at a weigh-in is drastic. As mma gains more mainstream popularity and competition, weight differences will become even more of an issue.

 

[Glnick]

No, it wouldn't be optimal. If it was the case they'd fight at HW.

Optimal =/= doable.

That what I am talking about ,they dont allow them to fight for the reason I posted. HWs have the disadvantage of cardio and stamina
In the early days there were no weight limits but now they are,I could post examples but the HWs back then were not the same as now because now they are more well trained.

But a good example is Cain Velasquez vs Brock lesnar ,the weight was like 30 lbs different?Brock unleashed his power at first and then he got tired and he was starting running in the ring while Cain didnt look tired at all and knock him out

 

[OldManGrip]

No, it wouldn't be optimal. If it was the case they'd fight at HW.

Optimal =/= doable.

cormier does well for having a lhw frame, if he didnt have kidney problems he could even make mw, but he likes to eat. Theres a lot of fat guys in the top 10 at hw, nelson, hunt, cormier, cains sort of pudgy too. Fedor was pudgy too. Its really what the fighter is more comfortable with, Fighters like cormier and fedor rely on their speed to be quicker but also have the power.

 

[Conan Lerehcob]

cormier does well for having a lhw frame, if he didnt have kidney problems he could even make mw, but he likes to eat. Theres a lot of fat guys in the top 10 at hw, nelson, hunt, cormier, cains sort of pudgy too. Fedor was pudgy too. Its really what the fighter is more comfortable with, Fighters like cormier and fedor rely on their speed to be quicker but also have the power.

We were specifically debating that LHW was (or wasn't) the optimal weight for an openweight format.

If LHW was the optimal weight for openweight then it would also be the optimal weight for HW and if it was the optimal weight for HW then fighters would maintain their weight around that and compete at HW instead.

That's all there is to it really. How much can fighter X or Y cut is irrelevant as long as they don't do it, regardless of the reason. The day all 205~lbs fighters dominate the HW you'll have a point. So far there are exception and that's about it. That's far from pushing the point that LHW is optimal for openweight.

Fighters fight at the weight class they perform the best compared to their opponents. This is that simple.

 

[EliteLurker]

Lots of MW's are 205+lbs and many LHW's are 230+ so the size difference is as extreme as people make it out to be.

Plus within the HW division itself we see dudes who are 230-240 beat the shit out of guys who are 265lbs, so the division itself proves that size isn't the end all be all.

It's why I laugh my ass off when people say Jones won't be a top 10 HW.

 

[savemgs]

then why don't MW & LHW fight at HW?

 

[Glnick]

then why don't MW & LHW fight at HW?

I explained why because its unfair.

 

[gspieler]

Size is significantly more of an advantage than a disadvantage, and any claim to suggest hw's are being protected from lhw's/mw's is ridiculous. Sure, you can pick a counterexample like Brock/Cain to support a "size is not an asset" claim, but the reason Cain beat Brock(as well most other situations where the smaller fighter one) had nothing to do with size; it had everything to do with the fact that Cain is just a better fighter. Put it this way: does anyone honestly believe that a 230-lb Lesnar would've ever won the title to begin with? His size and power, along with his excellent wrestling, were his biggest assets. Same with Anderson...why bother cutting 30lbs; why not just win the hw title? Or better yet, why isnt AS a 3-division champ by now?

 

[glennrod]

Well, that's a completely different topic then. Having an optimal weight for a specific fighter is a different discussion from "LHW being the optimal weight to fight at openweight."

yeah, i could have worded that a bit better, never mind

 

[Cotek]

Size didn't really matter in the old days of the UFC, because there was such a disparity in talent.

Nowadays, size and weight makes a tremendous difference. Take boxing for example. There is so much competition around the world, that even a 5 lb difference at a weigh-in is drastic. As mma gains more mainstream popularity and competition, weight differences will become even more of an issue.

In boxing the next class below heavyweight starts at 200 lbs. Even in collegiate wrestling, heavyweight is from 183+ and the next lowest class is at 197. I recall an interview where Konrad (a 300+ lbs 2x NCAA Div I champion) and Mo (wrestled at 185 and 197) talking about how Mo was outwrestling him (from what I recall of that interview.) Or to go back to boxing, Haye basically weighs as much as Middleweights do yet he has beaten guys that weigh as much as 315. Weight tends to matter less the further up you go.