International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. VII

[avenue94]

There's no evidence Israel intentionally and consistently bombs civilian targets with zero military objectives. Do fuck ups happen? Yes and I've acknowledged some of them. Fog of war and friendly fire happen as an example

Whats your explanation for why Israel hasn't punished these fuck ups you allude to?

 

[evergreenrider]

Whats your explanation for why Israel hasn't punished these fuck ups you allude to?

The dead are lesser than, what's to punish?

 

[MrShady]

Whats your explanation for why Israel hasn't punished these fuck ups you allude to?

It's wild the mental gymnastics they go through. Everything is Hamas' fault and Israel does no wrong.

I feel like this woman is who some of these users ITT are. Just soulless rhetoric reading off the script that Netanyahu ordered them to use for any criticism of the IDF.

 

[DEVILsSON]

Whats your explanation for why Israel hasn't punished these fuck ups you allude to?

I don't know that they haven't. It's middle of war. The ones who fucked up get due process as well. I believe the one who raped a Palestinian prisoner with a stick was out on bail while his case is pending. Do I agree with that? No, but it's also inaccurate to say that none of them/it hasn't been punished. Again I don't keep track of every single fuck up and their outcome. Is there even a site that is able to track it? Is it confidential? Like the soldiers who mistakenly shot up food aid workers I don't know what if anything will happen to them. Did the US soldiers who mistakenly blew up an Afghani wedding party and killed 50 people (or however many there were) get punished? But I suspect it's going to drag on and likely little will be done. To me the intentional and calculated act of rape was far worse and I sincerely hope that soldier gets significant prison time.

I have also previously stated and criticized Israel becoming more and more authoritarian (like US.. which is very concerning to me).

 

[avenue94]

I don't know that they haven't.

They haven't done anything regarding some of the most high profile incidents. Are you unaware of that or pie in the sky leaving open suggesting that Israel is secretly prosecuting these war crimes?

The ones who fucked up get due process as well.

Flour massacre or world kitchen. Any prosecutions or independent investigations from those? Note that Israel has deliberately covered up evidence in these instances.

Like the soldiers who mistakenly shot up food aid workers I don't know what if anything will happen to them.

There were mild career punishments for premeditated murder. Let that sink in.Y

Did the US soldiers who mistakenly blew up an Afghani wedding party and killed 50 people (or however many there were) get punished?

You're gonna have to specify which incident. We've blown up more than one wedding party.

But I suspect it's going to drag on and likely little will be done.

I have also previously stated and criticized Israel becoming more and more authoritarian (like US.. which is very concerning to me).

Surely you can connect the dots between your two ideas and understand how normalization of deviance and colonial war crimes contribute to Israel's turn away from democracy? It can't be said enough: Imperial wars always come home.

 

[DEVILsSON]

They haven't done anything regarding some of the most high profile incidents. Are you unaware of that or pie in the sky leaving open suggesting that Israel is secretly prosecuting these war crimes?

I am hopeful the worst cases will be adjudicated appropriately but what that is I don't know. I am sure what they do short of giving them life or death sentences will be insufficient in your eyes.

Flour massacre or world kitchen. Any prosecutions or independent investigations from those? Note that Israel has deliberately covered up evidence in these instances.

I heard of the world kitchen I can't remember about the flour incident. It feels like you're using very emotional language to influence the conversation. I don't know about the investigations. Like I said, it's middle of war. Some of the worst acts deserve serious punishment. Would 5-10 years be fair for rape with an object for someone with no prior criminal history? Just throwing it out there.

There were mild career punishments for premeditated murder. Let that sink in.Y

That's just your editorializing/sensationalizing what happened.

You're gonna have to specify which incident. We've blown up more than one wedding party.

I believe it's this one...

Afghan President Condemns 'Barbaric' Attack On Wedding Party

Afghan President Ashraf Ghani has condemned as "barbaric" an attack on a wedding party in Kabul that killed at least 63 people and left 182 others injured and called an extraordinary security meeting to discuss ways to avoid such "lapses."

www.rferl.org

"Afghan President Ashraf Ghani has condemned as "barbaric" an attack on a wedding party in Kabul that killed at least 63 people and left 182 others injured and called an extraordinary security meeting to discuss ways to avoid such "lapses.""

I was wrong it was 63 killed and 182 injured.

Surely you can connect the dots between your two ideas and understand how normalization of deviance and colonial war crimes contribute to Israel's turn away from democracy? It can't be said enough: Imperial wars always come home.

Yes lets ignore what Hamas did and have done in the past and just focus on some fringe cases by IDF to make some more blanket statements. You can't just hold accountable one side and ignore everything Hamas do because "well they're terrorists what else can you expect from them?". You can't repeatedly call out one country at UN while ignoring far worse atrocities. That's why I hold the views that I hold. As some others have rightly dubbed other ME conflicts and atrocities: No Jews No News.

 

[deviake]

Hear it from the source

I hardly ever look at this thread anymore but it still looks like people are STILL defending the terrorist state of Israel. Absolutely disgusting.

 

[avenue94]

I am hopeful the worst cases will be adjudicated appropriately but what that is I don't know. I am sure what they do short of giving them life or death sentences will be insufficient in your eyes.

If they weren't prosecuted in the immediate aftermath when evidence and testimony would be most available, why would you expect them to be prosecuted later when evidence is destroyed and more witnesses keep getting killed?

And why would consider anything less than life or capital punishment to be sufficient for cold blooded murder under the color of authority?

That's just your editorializing/sensationalizing what happened.

What editorializing? We agree that it civilians were murdered, and not one responsible soldier served a day in prison. A couple of reprimands and a dismal or two. Does that seem appropriate to you?

"Afghan President Ashraf Ghani has condemned as "barbaric" an attack on a wedding party in Kabul that killed at least 63 people and left 182 others injured and called an extraordinary security meeting to discuss ways to avoid such "lapses.""

I was wrong it was 63 killed and 182 injured.

Try reading your article, please.

Yes lets ignore what Hamas did and have done in the past and just focus on some fringe cases by IDF to make some more blanket statements.

Where am I ignoring what Hamas has done?

You can't repeatedly call out one country at UN while ignoring far worse atrocities

I question how serious your concern is for Israeli democracy if when offered the point that Israel's military conduct has also eroded its democratic strength is to complain that I'm being unfair to Israel. Bizarre whataboutism.

Quite a few members of Israel's military establishment have pointed out the same issue. Occupations and imperial wars come home and erode the character of a country and its democracy.

 

[Anewt]

[

I get where you're coming from but to me these are not the same.

People like Snub and others screech about using less extreme methods to bombing whole structures to eliminate heavily dug down Hamas. Israel on an infrequent basis uses disguises to get inside and eliminate terrorists without killing civilians. Then you have some people turn around and say "see both sides do this". Sure if you ignore all nuance. Hamas don't wear uniforms as a policy and disguise themselves as certain protected civilians (journalists, medics, etc) to attack IDF all the time. To me these approaches are not the same but I understand your perspective.

If hamas is using disguises to attack the idf. I really dont see a difference in idf using disguises to attack hamas.

If hamas is using disguises to attack civilians.. fuck them and ditto for vice versa.

The truth is far less innocents get blown apart with the idf utilising that tactic.. so i cant be against it.

But because of that... i cant expect hamas to not try the same techniques..

The idf used those disguises to protect themselves from attack because they were vunerable in that position.. so they took actions ( drs disguises ) that kept them safer for the time frame they were vunerable. . the difference is hamas is permanetely vunerable. So does it constantly.

We both know without a shadow of a doubt how well israel wages covert actions.

Imagine the pager thing if it had been pulled of the otherway. We wouldnt be hearing the terms like " brilliant .intelligence operation covert . Mossad . Etc etc.


All we would hear is heinous callous terrorist attack heh.

Imagine hamas operatives in a israelie hospital executing idf commanders. It would be presented a vastly different way and would be cowardly and evil for most.

The wars been won for ages. Bibi is just using it to hold the reigns along with gvir and smolrich. The Longer it goes the more they get of west bank..... not just gaza

 

[DEVILsSON]

[


If hamas is using disguises to attack the idf. I really dont see a difference in idf using disguises to attack hamas.

If hamas is using disguises to attack civilians.. fuck them and ditto for vice versa.

The truth is far less innocents get blown apart with the idf utilising that tactic.. so i cant be against it.

But because of that... i cant expect hamas to not try the same techniques..

The idf used those disguises to protect themselves from attack because they were vunerable in that position.. so they took actions ( drs disguises ) that kept them safer for the time frame they were vunerable. . the difference is hamas is permanetely vunerable. So does it constantly.

We both know without a shadow of a doubt how well israel wages covert actions.

Imagine the pager thing if it had been pulled of the otherway. We wouldnt be hearing the terms like " brilliant .intelligence operation covert . Mossad . Etc etc.


All we would hear is heinous callous terrorist attack heh.

Imagine hamas operatives in a israelie hospital executing idf commanders. It would be presented a vastly different way and would be cowardly and evil for most.

The wars been won for ages. Bibi is just using it to hold the reigns along with gvir and smolrich. The Longer it goes the more they get of west bank..... not just gaza

It comes down to Hamas being terrorists and everything they do is being perceived through that lens.

Hamas also target civilians where almost all victims of the pager operation were bona fide Hizbollah operatives. Yes there were a few unfortunate civilian casualties as well but that was an exception not the rule. Hamas would target civilian to cause mass panic and fear.

We agree on Bibi.

 

[DEVILsSON]

If they weren't prosecuted in the immediate aftermath when evidence and testimony would be most available, why would you expect them to be prosecuted later when evidence is destroyed and more witnesses keep getting killed?

Because that's the shitty part of war...it's a bit like why won't a country run an election midway through a war? People's attitudes change so one politician could win at one point in time and lose at another point. Such is life. As an example Zelenskyy's popularity was waning and he stood a decent chance of losing. Then the meeting with Trump and Vance happened and now he's far more popular and again would crush any other candidate.

And why would consider anything less than life or capital punishment to be sufficient for cold blooded murder under the color of authority?

Again most of the 'cold blooded murder' is your opinion of what happened. It's more like X Palestinians were killed during Y situation. You are certainly free to form your own opinions on what happened and come up with what you think is a fair punishment for that but again that's not the same as factual retelling of what happened.

What editorializing? We agree that it civilians were murdered, and not one responsible soldier served a day in prison. A couple of reprimands and a dismal or two. Does that seem appropriate to you?

Yep that happens depending on the exact circumstances. Sometimes you pay reparations like US did for that wedding bombing. It's the difference between bombing wrong target due to bad intelligence and Abu Ghraib prison atrocities.

Try reading your article, please.

Where am I ignoring what Hamas has done?

I question how serious your concern is for Israeli democracy if when offered the point that Israel's military conduct has also eroded its democratic strength is to complain that I'm being unfair to Israel. Bizarre whataboutism.

I am being pragmatic. Israel is surrounded by enemies. It is on better terms with some than others but a lot of it is for show knowing that Israel is backed by the number one military and Israel in its own right is by far the strongest. If Israel slips up even for a second, we may have another combined Arab Armies against Israel war. I am looking at it in a sober manner. Yes Israel has done some fucked up shit and so have many other countries yet none of you spend even a fraction of the time discussing it. There's a reason at one point 90% of UN resolutions were against Israel while a bunch of horrible shit was happening all over the world. It's a joke.

I absolutely believe some whataboutisms are fair and justified when it's so objectively unequal that holding one country to some set of standards while saying "oh well they don't share our Western ideals so who cares" for all the others with whom Israel must deal on a daily basis. It's like going after some broke person who steals some groceries while ignoring countless billionaire and millionaire crooks who rob the country blind. I would absolutely use whataboutism in that as well....either laws are for everyone or no one. Either we have a world order for everyone or no one and might makes right....It's not a world I want to live in but that's a sad reality.

Quite a few members of Israel's military establishment have pointed out the same issue. Occupations and imperial wars come home and erode the character of a country and its democracy.

Yes I too have acknowledged concerns with the eroding democracy and growing authoritarianism.

 

[Hog-train]

 

[Brendon Katz]

Israel kills civilians and blows up medical infrastructure on purpose.

Israel has repeatedly killed aide workers that have verifiably communicated their movements in advance.

"This sort of thing" you mean going out and trying to save lives of civilians that the IDF is trying to kill? The IDF does not follow standard procedures for dealing with aide workers. They intentionally kill them.

These vehicles were marked

Beneath the surface, it appears the IDF intentionally attacked aide workers, like they always do. Then they tried to BURY the evidence, like they always do.

Okay, so will Israel allow them to have military bases so that they can fight a conventional war?

You miss the point.

If Hamas waged conventional warfare, the IDFs actions would be war crimes. Because Hamas do not, the blame for the war crimes falls on Hamas. Why? Because the IDF are within their rights to protect themselves against unconventional attacks (ie. By medical convoy).

That’s the point of the laws of war. To minimise collateral damage.

 

[SuperAlly]

I don't know that they haven't. It's middle of war. The ones who fucked up get due process as well. I believe the one who raped a Palestinian prisoner with a stick was out on bail while his case is pending. Do I agree with that? No, but it's also inaccurate to say that none of them/it hasn't been punished. Again I don't keep track of every single fuck up and their outcome. Is there even a site that is able to track it? Is it confidential? Like the soldiers who mistakenly shot up food aid workers I don't know what if anything will happen to them. Did the US soldiers who mistakenly blew up an Afghani wedding party and killed 50 people (or however many there were) get punished? But I suspect it's going to drag on and likely little will be done. To me the intentional and calculated act of rape was far worse and I sincerely hope that soldier gets significant prison time.

I have also previously stated and criticized Israel becoming more and more authoritarian (like US.. which is very concerning to me).

Does avenue ever comment on Hamas, Palestinians and their "F ups" or is his ire always directed in one direction.

Deliberate lack of question mark.

 

[SuperAlly]

I hardly ever look at this thread anymore but it still looks like people are STILL defending the terrorist state of Israel. Absolutely disgusting.

Just like avenue

The condemnation is only for one side.

Plenty still defending the terrorists of Palestine too, but zero interest in that.

Why listen or engage with people who are so one sided.

Waste of time

 

[SuperAlly]

[


If hamas is using disguises to attack the idf. I really dont see a difference in idf using disguises to attack hamas.

If hamas is using disguises to attack civilians.. fuck them and ditto for vice versa.

The truth is far less innocents get blown apart with the idf utilising that tactic.. so i cant be against it.

But because of that... i cant expect hamas to not try the same techniques..

The idf used those disguises to protect themselves from attack because they were vunerable in that position.. so they took actions ( drs disguises ) that kept them safer for the time frame they were vunerable. . the difference is hamas is permanetely vunerable. So does it constantly.

We both know without a shadow of a doubt how well israel wages covert actions.

Imagine the pager thing if it had been pulled of the otherway. We wouldnt be hearing the terms like " brilliant .intelligence operation covert . Mossad . Etc etc.


All we would hear is heinous callous terrorist attack heh.

Imagine hamas operatives in a israelie hospital executing idf commanders. It would be presented a vastly different way and would be cowardly and evil for most.

The wars been won for ages. Bibi is just using it to hold the reigns along with gvir and smolrich. The Longer it goes the more they get of west bank..... not just gaza

Whilst your post is largely accurate "winning the war" isn't enough

They need to, to the best of their abilities, ensure Hamas cannot do another genocidal attack like they did on the 7th. Or at least batter them so severely that it's a long, long time before it happens again.

I would expect my country and government to do the same

 

[Snubnoze707]

You miss the point.

If Hamas waged conventional warfare, the IDFs actions would be war crimes. Because Hamas do not, the blame for the war crimes falls on Hamas. Why? Because the IDF are within their rights to protect themselves against unconventional attacks (ie. By medical convoy).

That’s the point of the laws of war. To minimise collateral damage.

Medical personnel collecting bodies of slain civilians isn't an "attack" you retard.

We've already established that the IDF uses similar tactics, so I guess we can write off Hamas attacks as IDF's fault and 10/7 wasn't a war crime using your idiotic logic.

 

[avenue94]

Because the IDF are within their rights to protect themselves against unconventional attacks (ie. By medical convoy).

That’s the point of the laws of war. To minimise collateral damage.

What aspect of international law provides this loophole?

The condemnation is only for one side.

Ah yes, another dumbass who doesn't understand what the word "also" means or didn't learn how to read repeated statements that Hamas are terrorists.

Because that's the shitty part of war...it's a bit like why won't a country run an election midway through a war?

Ukraine isn't running elections because it's in their constitution. Is there a clause in the Israeli constitution I missed that says no war crimes are to be prosecuted during war time?

As an example Zelenskyy's popularity was waning and he stood a decent chance of losing. Then the meeting with Trump and Vance happened and now he's far more popular and again would crush any other candidate.

What in the world does Ukraine have to do with Israeli conduct in war time.

It's more like X Palestinians were killed during Y situation.

What is your factual retelling of that particular incident?

Yep that happens depending on the exact circumstances. Sometimes you pay reparations like US did for that wedding bombing. It's the difference between bombing wrong target due to bad intelligence and Abu Ghraib prison atrocities.

It wasn't just bad intelligence, it was blatant disregard of orders and rules of engagement, combined with a lack of value for the lives of Gazans. If you want to be super charitable (keep in mind some of these soldiers were raging racists), it was scenario fulfillment, but even that deserves heavy punishments.

If Israel slips up even for a second, we may have another combined Arab Armies against Israel war. I am looking at it in a sober manner.

Are you unaware that Israel has nukes and would use them?

Yes I too have acknowledged concerns with the eroding democracy and growing authoritarianism.

What do you think is causing it?

 

[Brendon Katz]

What aspect of international law provides this loophole?

Rule 28. Medical units exclusively assigned to medical purposes must be respected and protected in all circumstances. They lose their protection if they are being used, outside their humanitarian function, to commit acts harmful to the enemy.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en

International Humanitarian Law. Basically the Geneva Convention

 

[Snubnoze707]

Rule 28. Medical units exclusively assigned to medical purposes must be respected and protected in all circumstances. They lose their protection if they are being used, outside their humanitarian function, to commit acts harmful to the enemy.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en

International Humanitarian Law. Basically the Geneva Convention

Are you stupid? They were collecting casualties, they weren't doing anything outside of their humanitarian function in this incident. The IDF slaughtered them then buried them in a mass grave, along with all of their official vehicles to hide the evidence.

That is a War Crime.

If their was another incident of Hamas disguising themselves, that doesn't negate this protection for these people because they WERE medical units. "protected in all circumstances" per your own post.