International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war. Vol. VII

[filthybliss]

Let's see who has killed the most children in the last 14 months

Diarrhea has

 

[cincymma79]

 

[Hog-train]

On this issue, there is a separate standard because Israel is an internationally recognised 1st world western state. That comes with lots of benefits and also responsibilities. They are open to critique, as are all world leaders, and are expected to operate at higher moral standards consistent with Western values.

Hamas is a terrorist org with little institutional power and are merely pawns of greater actors like Iran and Qatar which are also despised. Their lives are forfeit upon joining and people cheering on their tactics are viewed by the vast majority of people as a scumbags, and their opinions are disregarded.

I'd rather Israel not lower itself to Hamas by violating Western standards and I'd prefer not to equate the two in any way. Chalk and cheese.

Well said.

 

[Halifax]

On this issue, there is a separate standard because Israel is an internationally recognised 1st world western state. That comes with lots of benefits and also responsibilities. They are open to critique, as are all world leaders, and are expected to operate at higher moral standards consistent with Western values.

Hamas is a terrorist org with little institutional power and are merely pawns of greater actors like Iran and Qatar which are also despised. Their lives are forfeit upon joining and people cheering on their tactics are viewed by the vast majority of people as a scumbags, and their opinions are disregarded.

I'd rather Israel not lower itself to Hamas by violating Western standards and I'd prefer not to equate the two in any way. Chalk and cheese.

Fucking lol. A western state......in the middle east. It's true they are the one state in the middle east that exposes western values. They are the only democracy surrounded by villainous opportunistic totalitarian pan Arabic regimes who want to annihilate them and then each other. Defending a land with no strategic depth where 1 mistake means annihilation and their enemy believes compassion is a weakness to be exploited

Sorry, they get to go into Grey area to survive. If only the bad guys get to break the rules, the bad guys will always win

 

[Hog-train]

You know Americans and just about every other army on earth have giant fuck ups as well....

Did the US soldier who was convicted of Abu Ghraib abuse represent every American soldier?

The torture at Abu Ghraib wasn't an isolated soldier that went rogue. It was the official policy of the government.

The Torture Memos that the Justice Department came out with argued international humanitarian laws, such as the Geneva Conventions, did not apply to American interrogators overseas. Prisoners they wanted to torture were purposefully taken to overseas US prisons so they could torture them.

Torture Memos - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[filthybliss]

Well, good news. Imagine if Sinwar or Haniyeh just said fuck it, we wanna live with the jews. None of this would have happened.

 

[BAM]

Fucking lol. A western state......in the middle east. It's true they are the one state in the middle east that exposes western values. They are the only democracy surrounded by villainous opportunistic totalitarian pan Arabic regimes who want to annihilate them and then each other. Defending a land with no strategic depth where 1 mistake means annihilation and their enemy believes compassion is a weakness to be exploited

Sorry, they get to go into Grey area to survive. If only the bad guys get to break the rules, the bad guys will always win

Setting up shop on top of an existing people while surrounded by enemies was a move inherent in extreme risk. Probably would have been better for the zionist US and British benefactors to gift jews tracks of land in Utah, England, or anywhere other than there. But we're here, unfortunately. I can feel for the Israelis that inherited a mess that just want peace, but I am not going to just absolve the architects that got us here and blame it all on Palestinians who also inherited this mess and give Likkud carte blanche to do whatever they want.

And yes, they are a western state, as they a jewish state. Judeo-Christian values are the bedrock of western values. It is inherent, not imposed. It's their own values, part of why the west has been willing to help them, especially ardent zionists like Churchill (also hugely racist on colonial issues).

And it's a nuclear country with US as a strong backer and protector. They made a huge mistake by ignoring intelligence on Oct 7 and they paid for it, but annihilation isnt happening. Israel will be around long after all of us are dead.

Hypothetically, if Iran made a serious move directly rather than a performative one (or indirect through proxies), they'd get glassed by the US and Israel. Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt are also on board with normalising relations with Israel long term, but the war is in the way. MBS has said that he doesnt care about Palestine, he just doesnt want to get assassinated by angry Saudi Muslims over the war, so he is paying hardliners nominal lip service. So provided Israel doesnt fuck this up too badly, they will have long term success/security.

So, the argument that they are always on the verge of annihilation and that therefore all is permissible is a farce. Israel has the scope to exercise restraint and meet international standards.

Are there bigoted muslim majority countries ganging up on them in the UN and distorting things - yes. But there are plenty of anxious western zionist allies also turning on them by the day. It's why meeting western standards matters, to give reassurance and inspire confidence. Australia just turned on them officially a day or so ago. Generational support (Gen Z and Gen Y) is waning.

Now, depending on who you listen to, the civilian to combatant death ratio ranges from 9:1 (UN, EU) to 1.5:1 (Israel). You have people claiming it's a genocide and others claiming its a world leader in preventative civilian harm -

https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/07/opinions/israel-hamas-gaza-not-war-crimes-spencer/index.html

Whatever the truth is, as they are tight lipped on what's really going on, they need to convince their backers they are meeting standards and that's the west. With Trump coming in, I am not to too optimistic about how that will be managed but we'll see.

 

[BAM]

Gotta say it's weird to be lumped in with idealist thinking when I am probably the most cynical one here re what's going to happen, the motivations of the parties, the role of international law, the integrity of institutions (ICJ, ICC, US congress), media coverage, Super PACs, etc.

 

[Snubnoze707]

Probably would have been better for the zionist US and British benefactors to gift jews tracks of land in Utah

I don't think so, pal...

 

[BAM]

North

I don't think so, pal...

They'll do fookin nuthin

 

[Snubnoze707]

They'll do fookin nuthin

Fucking with Mormons would result in a severe lesson in fucking around and finding out...

Native Americans are the real Israelites. GTFOH.

 

[BAM]

Fucking with Mormons would result in a severe lesson in fucking around and finding out...

Native Americans are the real Israelites. GTFOH.

reminds me of that militant mormon from fallout back in the day

 

[DEVILsSON]

The torture at Abu Ghraib wasn't an isolated soldier that went rogue. It was the official policy of the government.

The Torture Memos that the Justice Department came out with argued international humanitarian laws, such as the Geneva Conventions, did not apply to American interrogators overseas. Prisoners they wanted to torture were purposefully taken to overseas US prisons so they could torture them.

Torture Memos - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I believe what some specific prisoner guards did was separate from the extraordinary rendition that you're referencing. What some of them went to prison for was torture rather than attempts to extract information through torture. While I do not condone either, one could have been more understandable in order to prevent future attacks(even if we know that torture is ineffective at extracting reliable information).

My specific example may not have been perfect but I am sure we can find some other more appropriate one where some soldier goes off the rails and shoots a bunch of civilians on his own.

 

[SuperAlly]

Fucking lol. A western state......in the middle east. It's true they are the one state in the middle east that exposes western values. They are the only democracy surrounded by villainous opportunistic totalitarian pan Arabic regimes who want to annihilate them and then each other. Defending a land with no strategic depth where 1 mistake means annihilation and their enemy believes compassion is a weakness to be exploited

Sorry, they get to go into Grey area to survive. If only the bad guys get to break the rules, the bad guys will always win

Well said.

 

[SuperAlly]

Good to see the weird, f'd up propaganda war has died on its arse in here much in the same way that Hamas genocidal, terrorist campaign has died on its arse

People not posting dozens of bs agenda driven tiktok sources a day trying to proclaim Israel and Jews as the devil's and everything terrorists do as completely blameless and fair game.

That nonsense wore thin over a year ago.

Hopefully just quality sources and more nuanced discussion moving forward

 

[DEVILsSON]

We should also not forget that Israel played no small role in getting rid of Assad.

By taking out Hizbolah leadership and Iranian air defense, Assad essentially lost bulk of his support. People focus on Russia but Israel absolutely screwed Assad in a less direct but more relevant way.

 

[BAM]

I saw this quick video, about a community starting a renewal (physical/psychological) process after the attacks. 29 hostages still outstanding. Outside of the outset of the war, survivors and hostages have taken a real backseat. Lots going on all at once.

 

[sangreporsangre]

 

[sangreporsangre]

I remember this he/him and his performative histrionics during Trump's first term. And here he is palling around with a genocidal maniac wanted for crimes against humanity. Republicans may be more demonic than Democrats but not by much.

 

[sangreporsangre]

Look if you don't think Israel has the right to shoot a pregnant woman in the stomach and then traffic her 4 year old daughter (who they also shot) as a form of self defense, you're antisemitic. There is absolutely no level of depravity that they can inflict on this little girl that Zionists wouldn't celebrate.