International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war Megathread

[kflo]

The grave for alot of them and weren't you just advocating emigration a couple ages ago ?

I advocated for Egypt to annex Gaza and make the people of Gaza Egyptian citizens. They stay in Gaza.

And yes, wars result in casualties. Many of them are Hamas casualties.

 

[Hog-train]

Jewish led Israel rights group in Israel says it's own government is committing war crimes and genocide.

 

[AnGrYcRoW]

I advocated for Egypt to annex Gaza and make the people of Gaza Egyptian citizens. They stay in Gaza.

And yes, wars result in casualties. Many of them are Hamas casualties.

You call me delusional, Egypt ( who have their own issues ) should just take on the humanitarian nightmare that Israel has created in Gaza

Many were hamas , what percentage do you think ?

 

[Hog-train]

Really? Tunnels have been built under cities to conduct terror activities and house terrorists since time immemorial? The tunnels should be off limits? What kind of logic is this?

Israel has military infrastructure deeply embedded within civilian Israeli infrastructure. The IDF headquarters are right in Tel Aviv next to commercial and residential areas and buildings.

So is it ok for those areas to be struck and killing civilians because they're using "human shields?"

Obviously not because that's a WAR CRIME. Your hypocrisy is astounding.

It’s laughable to think Israel can gather intelligence from outside Gaza and swoop in with targeted strikes that only take out Hamas leadership in short order that then renders Hamas powerless. It’s delusional.

Yet somehow Mossad was able to decapitate Iranian leadership with a beeper operation 1,500 miles away.

Actually, I’ve consistently cared about the long term future of the people of Gaza, not some bullshit where Hamas stays in power and Gaza continues to need to be isolated. You seem to be ok with that future. Since what you advocate for results in just that. Most of the “pro” Palestinians just want a win and a L for Israel, and don’t really care about the long term future suffering of Gaza.

But it's completely fine that tens of thousands of women and children are killed short term?

Stop lying. You don't give a fuck about Palestinian civilians being killed.

 

[AnGrYcRoW]

Really? Tunnels have been built under cities to conduct terror activities and house terrorists since time immemorial? The tunnels should be off limits? What kind of logic is this?

It’s laughable to think Israel can gather intelligence from outside Gaza and swoop in with targeted strikes that only take out Hamas leadership in short order that then renders Hamas powerless. It’s delusional.


Conventional means? What are “conventional means” in urban warfare?

I’m not arguing that. I’m asking what alternative could have achieved a good outcome for Gaza. You presented a version that is completely out of touch with reality.

Actually, I’ve consistently cared about the long term future of the people of Gaza, not some bullshit where Hamas stays in power and Gaza continues to need to be isolated. You seem to be ok with that future. Since what you advocate for results in just that. Most of the “pro” Palestinians just want a win and a L for Israel, and don’t really care about the long term future suffering of Gaza.

Yes people taking up defensive positions have dug tunnels since the dawn of time , it's not an excuse to completely decimate the entire area

Your second paragraph is one big straw man and completely misrepresents what I said , do better

Your position is that what Israel has done is the only solution, it's a ridiculous position

Oh and spare me the bullshit that you care about the long term future of Gazans while supporting what is going on , those positions are at odds with one another

 

[kflo]

You call me delusional, Egypt ( who have their own issues ) should just take on the humanitarian nightmare that Israel has created in Gaza

Many were hamas , what percentage do you think ?

You asked what I advocated for earlier in the conflict (actually I corrected what you thought I advocated for).

But yes, other regional players should be part of the equation for Gaza going forward.

I’m not going to guess %.

 

[kflo]

Israel has military infrastructure deeply embedded within civilian Israeli infrastructure. The IDF headquarters are right in Tel Aviv next to commercial and residential areas and buildings.

lol at that ridiculous comparison. Israel’s military infrastructure is clearly identified, stand alone, and separate from civilian spaces. Again, this speaks to your agenda. You make laughable comparisons. You think that’s similar to Hamas operating WITHIN civilian spaces, under civilian spaces, embedded throughout the city, with nothing to identify either members or spaces.

So is it ok for those areas to be struck and killing civilians because they're using "human shields?"

Obviously not because that's a WAR CRIME. Your hypocrisy is astounding.

Again, you’re a joke.

Yet somehow Mossad was able to decapitate Iranian leadership with a beeper operation 1,500 miles away.

It’s almost like Iran and Gaza are not the same.

Stop lying. You don't give a fuck about Palestinian civilians being killed.

It’s clear you only care about Israel losing. Not the future of the people of Gaza.

 

[kflo]

Yes people taking up defensive positions have dug tunnels since the dawn of time , it's not an excuse to completely decimate the entire area

You think Hamas tunnel network is taking up “defensive positions”?

Your second paragraph is one big straw man and completely misrepresents what I said , do better

Not really.

Your position is that what Israel has done is the only solution, it's a ridiculous position

I have not said that. What I’ve said is that your alternative solution does nothing. And if that’s the best you’ve got, then their current path was the better option.

Oh and spare me the bullshit that you care about the long term future of Gazans while supporting what is going on , those positions are at odds with one another

Again, what YOU advocated for would lead to the people of Gaza enduring the same future they’ve been living with Hamas indefinitely. It’s not a solution at all.

 

[Hog-train]

lol at that ridiculous comparison. Israel’s military infrastructure is clearly identified, stand alone, and separate from civilian spaces. Again, this speaks to your agenda. You make laughable comparisons. You think that’s similar to Hamas operating WITHIN civilian spaces, under civilian spaces, embedded throughout the city, with nothing to identify either members or spaces.

They're not all stand alone nor separate from civilian spaces.

Many Israeli military facilities are located in, under or near civilian areas. Some military infrastructure are situated in a densely populated civilian areas close to hospitals, malls, and schools.

This complex houses the IDF General Staff, the Ministry of Defense, and various military and intelligence facilities right next to residential houses.

Again, you’re a joke.

It’s almost like Iran and Gaza are not the same.

You're the joke that keeps on lying.

You: "Israel has no idea what's going on in Gaza so unable to do targeted strikes." LMAO GTFO.

It’s clear you only care about Israel losing. Not the future of the people of Gaza.

I care about tens of thousands of women and children not being killed. I care about people not being starved. I care about millions of people not being ethnically cleansed AGAIN.

You care about... Israel.

 

[kflo]

They're not all stand alone nor separate from civilian spaces.

Many Israeli military facilities are located in, under or near civilian areas. Some military infrastructure are situated in a densely populated civilian areas close to hospitals, malls, and schools.

This complex houses the IDF General Staff, the Ministry of Defense, and various military and intelligence facilities right next to residential houses.

You're the joke that keeps on lying.

You: "Israel has no idea what's going on in Gaza so unable to do targeted strikes." LMAO GTFO.



I care about tens of thousands of women and children not being killed. I care about people not being starved. I care about millions of people not being ethnically cleansed AGAIN.

You care about... Israel.

Clearly identifiable, stand alone and separate. And here you are trying to pretend it’s similar to Hamas having unidentifiable spaces with unidentifiable militants directly inside and under civilian infratstructure. You’re a shameless joke.

 

[Snubnoze707]

The Israeli Military Forces are made up of Civilians.

Could you imagine the outcry if Hamas armed all of it's civilians to shoot at Israeli children?

And yet people conflate Hamas and the Palestinian population in Gaza as one and the same, yet Israel is literally doing that.

"Hamas embeds itself into the population" while the IDF IS THE POPULATION.

LOL, the double standards are never ending.

 

[Hog-train]

Clearly identifiable, stand alone and separate. And here you are trying to pretend it’s similar to Hamas having unidentifiable spaces with unidentifiable militants directly inside and under civilian infratstructure. You’re a shameless joke.

LMAO @ your pic and shameless gaslighting. We have eyeballs. Do you not see the building literally across the street above it and to the left?

The building is literally right next to residential towers, a public hospital, transport hubs and residential houses in red. WTF are you talking about. This is right in the heart of downtown Tel Aviv.

Another military base in Ramat Gan is right next to Israel's largest and most advanced hospital - Sheba Medical Center.

Another military complex in the city Tzrifin is nestled right in between residential buildings, transport depots and a hospital.

Haifa Naval Base is in an area full of residential buildings, markets and beaches. Sits directly across the street from Ramban Health Care Campus. And there's plenty of other examples.

 

[kflo]

The Israeli Military Forces are made up of Civilians.

Could you imagine the outcry if Hamas armed all of it's civilians to shoot at Israeli children?

And yet people conflate Hamas and the Palestinian population in Gaza as one and the same, yet Israel is literally doing that.

"Hamas embeds itself into the population" while the IDF IS THE POPULATION.

LOL, the double standards are never ending.

Could you imagine the outcry if Iran had mandatory conscription and an active military multiples larger than Israel’s? Oh, wait…..

That’s not including their terror proxies.

Lol. You’re another cartoon character.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I am not wasting my time on this nonsense. I am not looking at some gotchas like some of you.

Okay, let's waste our time on huge multiquotes instead.

It's not. Repeatedly showing kids who are that way at all times is cynical and wrong. Like I said there's plenty of suffering in Gaza. How much suffering there is I don't know and neither do any of you. Even the cited numbers admit that it's all guesswork.

Are they that way at all times? Or are some of them seeing their condition worsen due to the hunger crisis?

I forget in what context I said it but I did make the point there's likely a higher level of genetic disorders due to cousin marriage. You don't think that's a fair statement?

Again I didn't say it negates issues of starvation or possible hunger issues, I said it partially explains the issue of genetic disorders.

In the context of that exchange that was referred no one was talking about genetic disorders, they were talking about the hunger crisis from lack of aid and you bring up cousin marriage and genetic disorders as the alternative explanation and that the hunger crisis is being exaggerated. That was exactly what was claimed about the exchange even though you complained that it was misrepresented.

I am not even shitting on them for the cousin marriage. I am saying it as a statement of fact. The same could probably be said of the Amish, Mennonites or Hasidic Jews but I doubt you'll be going to bat for them and strawmanning what I say to this extent...

Don't assume of me what's true of you.

So you acknowledge all that then still pretend that having a level of skepticism is completely out of line.

I never said having skepticism is out of line, I said the opposite earlier.

There's a lot of propaganda going both ways in this conflict and some skepticism around claims of heinous war crimes committed with extreme malice is not necessarily unreasonable on his part.

But I certainly don't get the sense that this is a person who has sympathy for the plight of the Palestinians, quite the opposite really.

I am not hand waving the atrocities. I acknowledged at least some of the things you deem 'atrocities'. I also acknowledged that some of it is exacerbated by Hamas's tactics of using civilian emergency vehicles, not wearing uniforms, fighting among civilians, etc etc etc.

Do you acknowledge that Israel is to blame for the current hunger crisis in Gaza?

I am not callous. I see the conflict for what it is. I have my biases sure.

You do come off pretty callous when talking about the Palestinians.

That's right it's not your job to do anything. You just 'misread' what I have to say to virtue signal and grandstand here when the answer to the question you asked me several times is staring you in the face and that you answered yourself.

What did I misread?

Palestinians are an invention in the sense that every people are an invention. Palestinians are just a more recent invention if we borrow your language. They are absolutely Jordanians, Egyptians, Syrians and Lebanese.

This is ahistorical Zionist propaganda. Even if you don't accept what Benny Morris says, that the Palestinian identity dates back to the 1920s during the Mandatory Period, its nonsensical to say it started in the late 80s and 90s when the Palestinians are brought under Israeli occupation in 1967. Palestinians are Jordanians and Syrians in the same way Israelis are Polish or Russian.

You expect me to go through thousands of pages to settle this nonsense? No thanks. There's a reason you barely recall taking issue of one thing I said over this entire time.

Okay.

Again the sympathy answer is staring you in the face.

You're getting closer. It's so obvious.

It may seem that way to you but not from where I'm standing.

Yet all the Palestinian supporters will be quick to point to some Israeli poll saying they want to murder and eat every Palestinian.


While you were technically correct that Bush was still more popular or whatever the actual answer was, Palestinians disproportionately supported Hamas after Oct 7th. This doesn't help your case here as much as you think.

See you're doing the thing again, pounding the table on the Palestinian stats while hand waiving away the ones on Israelis. Israeli Jews are also very radicalized, don't forget that.

The answer of sympathy is so obvious...and yes I have lots of it for the Palestinian people who are trapped between a rock and hard place.

Okay, doesn't come off that way at all though.

You are not wrong here to some extent however Oct 7th was beyond the pale. Most other resistance groups know the limits and typically don't go beyond them.

Okay and Israel trying to starve Gaza is also beyond the pale but will you call that out?

It's funny you bring up Gvir and Smotrich and state they are an afterthought as far as their influence during elections. Yet they are brought up time and again as representative of all Israelis. They are the Israeli versions of MTG.

I didn't say they are an afterthought in terms of their influence, do not misread or twist my words. They are very powerful because coalition politics allows even small parties to play kingmaker and wield far more influence than their vote share would suggest and that's exactly what's happening now. Do you really deny that Ben-Gvir and Smotrich are very influential right now?

My point transcends even Hamas. Palestinians have waged wars long before Hamas, lost them, lost lands, faced more repression and so on. Sure most of the Gazans didn't vote for them but by and large they supported them unless you're now going to claim those polls and surveys were done under duress.

If you really think an election from 20 years ago where the majority of the current population could not vote and where Hamas did not win a majority tells us that today the Palestinians support Hamas then idk what to tell you because that is quite the reach. And as I said if you want to dig up polls and election results Israelis don't come out looking very good either but you won't acknolwedge that will you?

There's zero charade here. I am truthfully sympathetic to their plight. The answer is staring you in the face.

Okay but like I said it certainly doesn't come off that way to me.

I deleted this comment but since you already read/quoted it, you jump on the posters with whom you ideologically disagree while pretending you don't see the KAZ type comments.

I haven't even jumped on the other Zionist posters ITT, I'm only exchanging with you right now. You try to present yourself as some moderate but you actually regurgitate some pretty extreme Zionist rhetoric like this idea that Palestinians came into being in the 1980s. Its basically the Zionist equivalent of "Israelis are Europeans!" from the Palestinian side. If someone was trying to frame themselves as a moderate while saying Israelis are basically Europeans I don't think you'd let that slide and rightfully so.

The answer is so simple.

Should I do a couple analogies without you saying I am equating Palestinian people to what am I about to say? I have used analogies, sarcasm, humor, etc in the past but it seems it is hit and miss when people go out of their way to misunderstand me.

I sympathize with many low income incarcerated people who end up living the life of crime or ending up behind bars when had they been better financially well off they wouldn't be. However despite my sympathy would I want to live in a building full of felons? No. Does that make me unsympathetic to the system inequality in the American justice system and the incarcerated people?

I sympathize with the struggles foster youth face. They face so many challenges. Their lives are very hard. However would I want to adopt foster youths? Probably not. Does that make me unsympathetic to them?

I sympathize with the plight of the American veterans. Would I want to have a veteran with PTSD living across from me and screaming in his sleep every night? No. Am I unsympathetic to the plight of the American veterans who have PTSD?

I am sympathetic to the plight of the 'unhoused' people in the US...would I want them settled in my building? No because I've seen what that often results in...am I unsympathetic to the plight of the homeless people?

So to make my point crystal clear....I sympathize with the Palestinian people in a broad sense. They are stuck between a rock and hard place both in Gaza and West Bank and face endless bullshit from both Israel/settlers and their governments of Hamas and PA respectively. However per your own admission many of them have been radicalized(you have examples of such people coming out of the woodwork even recently with some strong antisemitic sentiments. Some have lost their residency status or got in serious trouble over it. There were examples in US, UK, Australia, etc.) and thus I wouldn't want to live next to them. I am all about giving people grace as you say but I am also a realist/pragmatist. It is why I am in favor of the Palestinian people forming their own nation state.

I hope I drove my point home. Let me know if I need to think of some more examples of how someone can be sympathetic yet also pragmatic at the same time...

I didn't need your half baked analogies but thanks anyway I guess.

My point is that while you say you "sympathize with the Palestinian people in a broad sense" it comes off like crocodile tears because your posts generally come off as disdainful of the Palestinians. You see them as driven by blind hatred instead of having sympathy for their grievances, you see them as more or less a fake nation who are no different from their Arab neighbors, and your first thought when seeing that some of them might get refugee status in Britain isn't "how great that some might escape" but rather to assume the worst of them off the bat. No one is asking you to house a Palestinian refugee in your house but unless you live in the UK if your first reaction to some Palestinians getting refugee status there is basically "fuck em, wouldn't want em near me" you don't come off as very sympathetic. Is that really hard for you to understand? That maybe your posts don't come off the way you intend given your choice of words and what you tend to emphasize? You will say things like "I have broad sympathy for Palestinians" seemingly as a perfunctory concession despite the fact that the rest of your posting suggests the opposite.

 

[Hog-train]

I believe 1/3 is a commonly agreed upon number.

1/3rd is not a commonly agreed upon number at all.

That's just all the adult males and Israel falsely claiming that with zero actual evidence. They're saying that ALL ADULT MALES KILLED are Hamas.

Every single adult male is Hamas and they know that for a fact when they're sending missiles to destroy entire buildings. Yea ok real believable.

FOH with this retarded shit LMAO.

I am not crazy about 2/3 of civilians being killed, countless people being maimed, etc. However while you lay 100% of the blame at Israel I on the other hand lay most of the blame on Hamas. You can laugh, cry, protest, etc nothing will change until there's pressure on Hamas to leave and PA or another entity takes over.

That's like a rapist saying the person they victimized is at fault for wearing slutty clothes.

It's all Hama's fault I killed tens of thousands of women and children!! LMAO clown shit.

 

[AnGrYcRoW]

Could you imagine the outcry if Iran had mandatory conscription and an active military multiples larger than Israel’s? Oh, wait…..

That’s not including their terror proxies.

Lol. You’re another cartoon character.

But but Iran !

Take a step back , you must see how weak that is .

 

[kflo]

Okay, let's waste our time on huge multiquotes instead.

Are they that way at all times? Or are some of them seeing their condition worsen due to the hunger crisis?

In the context of that exchange that was referred no one was talking about genetic disorders, they were talking about the hunger crisis from lack of aid and you bring up cousin marriage and genetic disorders as the alternative explanation and that the hunger crisis is being exaggerated. That was exactly what was claimed about the exchange even though you complained that it was misrepresented.

Don't assume of me what's true of you.

I never said having skepticism is out of line, I said the opposite earlier.


Do you acknowledge that Israel is to blame for the current hunger crisis in Gaza?

You do come off pretty callous when talking about the Palestinians.

What did I misread?

This is ahistorical Zionist propaganda. Even if you don't accept what Benny Morris says, that the Palestinian identity dates back to the 19020s during the Mandatory Period, its nonsensical to say it started in the late 80s and 90s when the Palestinians are brought under Israeli occupation in 1967. Palestinians are Jordanians and Syrians in the same way Israelis are Polish or Russian.

Okay.

It may seem that way to you but not from where I'm standing.

See you're doing the thing again, pounding the table on the Palestinian stats while hand waiving away the ones on Israelis. Israeli Jews are also very radicalized, don't forget that.

Okay, doesn't come off that way at all though.

Okay and Israel trying to starve Gaza is also beyond the pale but will you call that out?

I didn't say they are an afterthought in terms of their influence, do not misread or twist my words. They are very powerful because coalition politics allows even small parties to play kingmaker and wield far more influence than their vote share would suggest and that's exactly what's happening now. Do you really deny that Ben-Gvir and Smotrich are very influential right now?

If you really think an election from 20 years ago where the majority of the current population could not vote and where Hamas did not win a majority tells us that today the Palestinians support Hamas then idk what to tell you because that is quite the reach. And as I said if you want to dig up polls and election results Israelis don't come out looking very good either but you won't acknolwedge that will you?

Okay but like I said it certainly doesn't come off that way to me.

I haven't even jumped on the other Zionist posters ITT, I'm only exchanging with you right now. You try to present yourself as some moderate but you actually regurgitate some pretty extreme Zionist rhetoric like this idea that Palestinians came into being in the 1980s. Its basically the Zionist equivalent of "Israelis are Europeans!" from the Palestinian side. If someone was trying to frame themselves as a moderate while saying Israelis are basically Europeans I don't think you'd let that slide and rightfully so.

I didn't need your half baked analogies but thanks anyway I guess.

My point is that while you say you "sympathize with the Palestinian people in a broad sense" it comes off like crocodile tears because your posts generally come off as disdainful of the Palestinians. You see them as driven by blind hatred instead of having sympathy for their grievances, you see them as more or less a fake nation who are no different from their Arab neighbors, and your first thought when seeing that some of them might get refugee status in Britain isn't "how great that some might escape" but rather to assume the worst of them off the bat. No one is asking you to house a Palestinian refugee in your house but unless you live in the UK if your first reaction to some Palestinians getting refugee status there is basically "fuck em, wouldn't want em near me" you don't come off as very sympathetic. Is that really hard for you to understand? That maybe your posts don't come off the way you intend given your choice of words and what you tend to emphasize? You will say things like "I have broad sympathy for Palestinians" seemingly as a perfunctory concession despite the fact that the rest of your posting suggests the opposite.

The West Bank was literally part of Jordan until Israel captured it. And they didn’t renounce the territory until the late 80s.

There has never been a Palestinian state. That doesn’t mean there can’t be one in the future. But it’s never existed. They rejected it in ‘48 because they rejected the idea of Israel.

Gaza further rejected the idea in ‘05/‘06 when they elected Hamas and Hamas violently evicted fatah.

 

[avenue94]

But but Iran !

Take a step back , you must see how weak that is .

The dead giveaway on the fake sympathy for Gaza's future is that every time I've asked him what Israel's plan for the day after is, his answer is "they're working on it"

As we know, people show care for each other by having no plan other than continued death and destruction.

 

[kflo]

But but Iran !

Take a step back , you must see how weak that is .

lol.

It’s fake outrage. Iran is a clear enemy of Israel and has a military multiples larger in the region excluding terror proxies also in the region and he’s railing about Israel also having conscription.

And here you are backing his fake outrage.

 

[kflo]

The dead giveaway on the fake sympathy for Gaza's future is that every time I've asked him what Israel's plan for the day after is, his answer is "they're working on it"

As we know, people show care for each other by having no plan other than continued death and destruction.

Fuck off. Every time I ask you what plan you’d have for Gaza it starts with Hamas still governing. That’s you caring.