International Hamas launches surprise attack on Israel; Israel has declared a state of war Megathread

[Snubnoze707]

Let's do some numbers:

Percentage of Jews in Europe killed in the Holocaust: 60%

Percentage of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire killed in the Armenian Genocide: 60-65%

Percentage of Tutsi killed in the 1994 Rwanda genocide: 70% - 80%

Percentage of Gazans killed in the Gaza War 10/8/23-Today: 3%

One of these things is not like the other.

We don't know the extent of the real numbers of Palestinians killed in Gaza, it's also ongoing and not over.

Regardless, the definition of Genocide does not hinge on any percentage. There is absolutely nothing in the Genocide Convention where it was defined that outlines that whatsoever, so nice try. You may want to go read it.

 

[kflo]

A wasteland of rubble, dust and graves: how Gaza looks from the sky

The Guardian joins a Jordanian military airdrop for a rare chance to observe a landscape devastated by Israel’s offensive

www.theguardian.com

The flight offered not only a chance to witness three tonnes of aid – far from sufficient – dropped over the famine-stricken strip but also a rare opportunity to observe, albeit from above, a territory that has been largely sealed off from the international media since 7 October and the subsequent offensive launched by Israel. Following the Hamas-led attacks that day, Israel barred foreign journalists from entering Gaza – an unprecedented move in the history of modern conflict, marking one of the rare moments that reporters have been denied access to an active war zone.

View image in fullscreen

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One of the “journalists” quoted in your link is a 20 year old gazan woman. She’s now the Gazan correspondent for the guardian.

The article calls Hamas health ministry “health authorities”.

Again, this is an information war and they know it.

 

[fishNjits]

We don't know the extent of the real numbers of Palestinians killed in Gaza, it's also ongoing and not over.

Regardless, the definition of Genocide does not hinge on any percentage. There is absolutely nothing in the Genocide Convention where it was defined that outlines that whatsoever, so nice try. You may want to go read it.

You mean Article II? In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group,

If the Israelis intended to destroy, in whole or in part, the people of Gaza, they could have had Rwanda numbers in a matter of weeks.

 

[avenue94]

Neither one is a genocide, they are both wars that could end, but neither side one either side has any interest in peace. With both Ukraine and Gaza the corrupt leaders will keep this going as long as they can to skim as much money off the top as possible. Neither one of these wars would have happened it it weren't for US involvement.

If deliberate mass starvation of a civilian population isn't genocidal intent, I don't know what is.

Besides, what happened to the genocidal scholar whose framework you tried abusing? Is their belief that genocide is happening in Gaza not persuasive enough for you?

 

[kflo]

Looks WORSE than a Terminator post apocalyptic world.

Imagine believing people are lying about starvation.

Imagine believing there’s no misinformation coming out of Gaza.

 

[Snubnoze707]

You mean Article II? In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group,

If the Israelis intended to destroy, in whole or in part, the people of Gaza, they could have had Rwanda numbers in a matter of weeks.

Intent isn't defined by efficacy. You are making irrelevant points, and your google search didn't help your argument.

"in whole or in part"

 

[fishNjits]

Intent isn't defined by efficacy. You are making irrelevant points, and your google search didn't help your argument.

Are you really arguing that the Israelis are committing genocide, but are just bad at it? The same country that wiped out Hezbollah with hacked pagers and destroyed Iran's air force in a matter of days? Bu

Kind of find this hard to believe. Just saying.

 

[Snubnoze707]

Are you really arguing that the Israelis are committing genocide, but are just bad at it? The same country that wiped out Hezbollah with hacked pagers and destroyed Iran's air force in a matter of days? Bu

Kind of find this hard to believe. Just saying.

No, I actually think they are doing a great job at it, we just don't know the full extent of the destruction because Israel is not allowing journalists or anyone into Gaza in order to verify what is happening.

A wasteland of rubble, dust and graves: how Gaza looks from the sky

The Guardian joins a Jordanian military airdrop for a rare chance to observe a landscape devastated by Israel’s offensive

www.theguardian.com

View image in fullscreen

Does this look like they are doing a bad job?

And thank you for referencing Hezbollah. Don't you find it odd how they managed to bring them down completely with pagers with extremely low collateral, yet when it comes to Hamas they just level entire blocks to maybe kill a few members while erasing all of the civilians? You don't question why those same clever tactics weren't used against Hamas, instead it's carpet bombing? I mean, it's not like they didn't have the opportunity to do it. They could have put bombs in those suitcases of cash they were helping to get to Hamas from Qatar when they were propping them up.....

 

[fishNjits]

No, I actually think they are doing a great job at it, we just don't know the full extent of the destruction because Israel is not allowing journalists or anyone into Gaza in order to verify what is happening.



Does this look like they are doing a bad job?

And thank you for referencing Hezbollah. Don't you find it odd how they managed to bring them down completely with pagers with extremely low collateral, yet when it comes to Hamas they just level entire blocks to maybe kill a few members while erasing all of the civilians? You don't question why those same clever tactics weren't used against Hamas, instead it's carpet bombing? I mean, it's not like they didn't have the opportunity to do it. They could have put bombs in those suitcases of cash they were helping to get to Hamas from Qatar when they were propping them up.....

Yet, the Israelis seem to have missed a lot of people. They must have all known where the Israelis were going to bomb...Oh wait, that's right. They did...the Israelis told them!

C'mon, your hyperbole is over-wrought. There's no genocide happening. If there was a genocide, it would all be over by now.

As for Hezbollah versus Hamas, Lebanon is a much more open society (same goes for the West Bank, btw), than Gaza. Gaza's a completely different kettle of fish.

Time to go home.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Imagine believing there’s no misinformation coming out of Gaza.

Imagine defending the horrors of people you will never meet in real life

 

[Hog-train]

Yet, the Israelis seem to have missed a lot of people. They must have all known where the Israelis were going to bomb...Oh wait, that's right. They did...the Israelis told them!

C'mon, your hyperbole is over-wrought. There's no genocide happening. If there was a genocide, it would all be over by now.

As for Hezbollah versus Hamas, Lebanon is a much more open society (same goes for the West Bank, btw), than Gaza. Gaza's a completely different kettle of fish.

Time to go home.

Yet even Israeli human rights organizations in the country also called it genocide. B’Tselem and Physicians for Human Rights, say Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza and the country’s western allies have a legal and moral duty to stop it.

If Israel just started killing all Palestinians in gas chambers in an efficient way, the entire world would sanction them and wouldn't let them get away with it. They're just doing what they can get away with.

And regardless what you consider genocide or not, they are 100% trying to ethnically cleanse them from the area. Ethnic cleansing is a war crime.

 

[kflo]

Imagine defending the horrors of people you will never meet in real life

Rob, I’ve gotten along with you but you’ve shown quite a dark side on this topic.

 

[HenryFlower]

Yet, the Israelis seem to have missed a lot of people. They must have all known where the Israelis were going to bomb...Oh wait, that's right. They did...the Israelis told them!

C'mon, your hyperbole is over-wrought. There's no genocide happening. If there was a genocide, it would all be over by now.

As for Hezbollah versus Hamas, Lebanon is a much more open society (same goes for the West Bank, btw), than Gaza. Gaza's a completely different kettle of fish.

Time to go home.

oh my sweet, sweet summer child

 

[Anewt]

One of the “journalists” quoted in your link is a 20 year old gazan woman. She’s now the Gazan correspondent for the guardian.

The article calls Hamas health ministry “health authorities”.

Again, this is an information war and they know it.

Well yeah shes gazan... generally you want a correspondant who is actually in the place... id prefer abc and australian journolists. But they arent allowed....

Umm. They would be their health authority wouldnt they ?

If this is a information war israel should be embarrased. Running with. No news is good news and "we dont know but they are definetely lieing " has been stupidity personified.

Trust me hamas figures arent the worst out there.. even the lanclet says higher and
The lasf time the idf released figures it was about a 4k difference.35 to 31k

Gaza death toll 40% higher than official number, Lancet study finds

Analysis estimates death toll by end of June was 64,260, with 59% being women, children and people over 65

www.theguardian.com

Research published in the Lancet medical journal estimates that the death toll in Gaza during the first nine months of the Israel-Hamas war was about 40% higher than numbers recorded by the Palestinian territory’s health ministry.

The peer-reviewed statistical analysis was conducted by academics at the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine, Yale University and other institutions, using a statistical method called capture-recapture analysis.
It has not been possible for international media to independently verify the death toll in Gaza as Israel does not allow foreign journalists into the territory.

A senior Israeli official, commenting on the study published on Friday, said Israel’s armed forces went to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties. “No other army in the world has ever taken such wide-ranging measures,” the official said.

Intelligence war?? Thats reaaaallly embarrasing to lose a intelligence war to hamas.... and when talking figures run with... we are the most moral army ever lol..

How strange rafah keeps being brought up...

Israel accused of arming Palestinian gang who allegedly looted aid in Gaza

Gang ‘of about 100 armed men’ operate in eastern Rafah with tacit approval of IDF in apparent attempt to counter Hamas

www.theguardian.com

Satellite images and videos verified by the Israeli newspaper Haaretz showed on Thursday that a new Palestinian militia has expanded its presence in southern Gaza, and is operating inside an area under the direct control of the Israel Defense Forces.

The group, which has also been accused of ties to jihadist groups, is reportedly led by a man known as Yasser abu Shabab, a Rafah resident from a Bedouin family, known locally for his involvement in criminal activity and the looting of humanitarian aid.

According to media reports, Abu Shabab’s group, which calls itself the “Anti-Terror Service”, consists of about 100 armed men who operate in eastern Rafah with the tacit approval of the Israeli armed forces. It has variously been described as a militia and a criminal gang.

The Times of Israel cited defence sources who said that Israel provided members of Abu Shabab’s faction with Kalashnikov assault rifles, including some weapons seized from Hamas. The operation was approved by Israel’s security cabinet and prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the newspaper reported, noting that its article had been approved for publication by Israel’s military censor.

In a video posted on social media late on Thursday, Netanyahu said Israel had “activated” some Palestinian clans in Gaza, on the advice of “security officials,” in order to save lives of Israeli soldiers.

The prime minister’s office had earlier said that “Israel is working to defeat Hamas in various ways, on the recommendation of all heads of the security establishment.”


On 28 May, Jonathan Whittall, the head of United Nations office for the coordination of humanitarian affairs in occupied Palestinian territories said: “Israel has publicly claimed that the UN and NGO aid is being diverted by Hamas. But this doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. The real theft of aid since the beginning of the war has been carried out by criminal gangs, under the watch of Israeli forces, and they were allowed to operate in proximity to the Kerem Shalom crossing point into Gaza"


Even more astonishing, according to an internal UN memo obtained by the Washington Post, these looting gangs established military compounds from where they launch attacks on trucks and reportedly set up warehouses with forklifts to unload looted truckloads and horde giant quantities of looted aid to drive prices up before selling some at astronomical prices. Those very warehouses are in Rafah, which the Israeli military has fully depopulated and rendered an extermination and destruction zone, meaning any Palestinian who attempts to enter is killed or kidnapped. Israel never raided or bombed Abu Shabab’s compound, prompting the UN memo to accuse Israel of providing “active or passive protection” to this gang.



but hey... im sure hamas was going through booby trapping the place... despite it being controlled by the idf and abu shabibs gunman.

Just like im sure the commander who needs another month to level ... i mean eliminate the hamas battalion in khan younis.



Abu Shabab has been seen operating in southern Gaza’s Rafah and Khan Younis, and represents the first significant internal armed opposition movement to Hamas’s rule over the Strip’s residents.


how strange that hamas is the most effective in areas controlled by the idf and the groups armed by israel...... odd.

Oh well. Level it all. Thatll get em... lol

 

[Stoic1]

Disinformation on both sides makes it difficult to read through the noise.

I will say that this does not look like a war. It looks like a giant war crime.

"My war crimes are justified because of your war crimes"

Ukebros should stay the fuck out of this thread.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Rob, I’ve gotten along with you but you’ve shown quite a dark side on this topic.

I’ve got nothing against you, Sherbro.

Just a few questions— you don’t believe the numbers that are being prescribed in this conflict.

So, my question is how many children do you think have been killed named or orphan since this has begun?

The next question is, how many children being killed maimed or orphaned would it take for you to say, “ you know what, that seems like a little bit much for me”?

 

[Rob Battisti]

Maimed ** can’t edit due to dubs

 

[Anewt]

Yet, the Israelis seem to have missed a lot of people. They must have all known where the Israelis were going to bomb...Oh wait, that's right. They did...the Israelis told them!

C'mon, your hyperbole is over-wrought. There's no genocide happening. If there was a genocide, it would all be over by now.

As for Hezbollah versus Hamas, Lebanon is a much more open society (same goes for the West Bank, btw), than Gaza. Gaza's a completely different kettle of fish.

Time to go home.

so there was zero point in the bombs then... or do the terrorists decide to stay in the buildingto do the right thing ?

Let's do some numbers:

Percentage of Jews in Europe killed in the Holocaust: 60%

Percentage of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire killed in the Armenian Genocide: 60-65%

Percentage of Tutsi killed in the 1994 Rwanda genocide: 70% - 80%

Percentage of Gazans killed in the Gaza War 10/8/23-Today: 3%

One of these things is not like the other.

Yeah..

One of those things is just beginning

 

[DEVILsSON]

Just some more info on the guy and his possible motives.

How dare you bismirch Captain America!!

That's an actual war with fighting between soldiers on one side and soldiers on another side.

There is substantially less Ukrainian civilians killed in that war than their is in Gaza, even though it's significantly larger and has been going on longer.

In Gaza it's just the IDF shooting fish in a barrel, and those fish are all civilians - mostly women and children.

Oh, plus all of the genocidal rhetoric being stated by all of the Israeli officials. Intent is the key factor in proving Genocide, and the Israeli's are providing us with that evidence.

Will you at least acknowledge that Russia and Hamas use different tactics to wage their prospective wars? One wears uniforms, clears out civilians, generally abides by Geneva Conventions, etc and the other fights in civilian clothing, fights among civilians, intentionally inflates numbers by preventing movement, fights from banned locations, etc...

It's really weird to see people who have been advocating for cutting off aid to Ukraine for years now cititing Ukraine as a reason why people shouldn't care about the genocide in Gaza.

Newsflash fuckwads: Ukrainians and Palestinians are both victims of imperialism. The fact that the subjugation of one group serves the interest of US hegemony and the other doesn't is irrelevant. The morally consistent position to take is that both are wrong

The key difference is that Ukraine didn't start its war with Russia.

Hamas on the other hand started its war with Israel by committing the worst terrorist attack on Israeli soil since it was formed....

 

[Snubnoze707]

Will you at least acknowledge that Russia and Hamas use different tactics to wage their prospective wars? One wears uniforms, clears out civilians, generally abides by Geneva Conventions, etc and the other fights in civilian clothing, fights among civilians, intentionally inflates numbers by preventing movement, fights from banned locations, etc...

No shit, Russia is a sovereign nation with a fully fleshed out military and centuries of experience, Hamas is operating in a restricted territory ultimately controlled by Israel that does not allow for a military and they are a bunch of guys in Adidas sweatpants and flip flops.

And yet still, they somehow managed to reek havoc in Israel on October 7th with even with advanced detailed notice about the incoming attack. Weird.