Grappling in armor

[j123]

"Richard de Burgh attempted to grapple with him and pull his helmet off, but as he tried to do so the Marshal with one sword blow"

Sounds like he tried to have sex with him, but Marshal wasn't having any of that

 

[Salves sod Iqueac]

It seems that I can no longer use quote and reply.

For those who are interested, in addition to the books and authors cited by me, it is also good to have room for a little of common sense.

To the OP: The funniest thing was your pretentiousness. You thought you were so smart. If only you had thought about ... studying a little about it ... reading some books etc. You know? The basic.

And to think that all this happened because I hurt your feelings by saying the obvious. That HEMA guys are a bunch of nerds. And historically inaccurate nerds to top it off.

Well all this happened because i hurt your feelings and because you're stupid.

 

[Balto]

Weren't knights usually taken hostage for ransoms? Knights being something of an investment and an asset opposed to general infantry.

Agincourt was an exception to that actually.

The English took most of the knights prisoner at first. Then they starting killing them execution style because they realized the prisoners were fully armored and still outnumbered them.

They spared the most important nobles, but they ended up killing a lot of knights that they otherwise would have ransomed. It was controversial to kill knight prisoners like that, even back then.

 

[Balto]

Enjoyable if feisty thread.

No doubt that spear and bow were always the pro military weapons. The other stuff was amateur and duel material.

I learned a good bit.

Not a bad thread at all.

 

[tekkenfan]

Forgot to mention:

Ancient and medieval battles were usually held until %10~%20 loss of soldiers, which was the breaking point and when one side will rout.

So, there were actually quite a lot of battle veterans.

Otherwise, every single battle would have been resulted in complete desolation of the enemy and his kingdom.
And as we know very well (we study history quite a lot in Europe) that was not the case.

most armies would surrender after a loss of 10-20% casualties? wtf? didnt know that id feel much better about going to war back then lol

 

[ItsArun]

This is the most f12 thread we’ve had in years

 

[winterbike]

Agincourt was an exception to that actually.

The English took most of the knights prisoner at first. Then they starting killing them execution style because they realized the prisoners were fully armored and still outnumbered them.

They spared the most important nobles, but they ended up killing a lot of knights that they otherwise would have ransomed. It was controversial to kill knight prisoners like that, even back then.

Best argument I've seen against killing/torturing prisoners is that if your enemies know it's what awaits them they won't surrender and fight to the death instead.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

most armies would surrender after a loss of 10-20% casualties? wtf? didnt know that id feel much better about going to war back then lol

Not so fast

Armies would fight until %10~%20 losses, then they will flee.

Now, what happens after, depends on the situation, motivation of the enemy and his final goal.

1st Bulgarian empire, emperor Samuil was at continuous war with the Byzantium empire.

In 1014, in battle at Klyuch, the Byzantium emperor Vasilius II captured 15,000 Bulgarian soldiers and nobles.

In a swift maneuver, the hair of the Bulgarian emperor, Gavrail Radomir, decimated small Byzantium army and killed with his spear the Byzantium emperor's favorite general.

In his rage, the Byzantium emperor Vasilius II ordered ALL of the captured 15,000 Bulgarian soldiers to be blinded and left just one eye to every 100 soldiers, to lead them back home.
Thats 13,500 blind soldiers, led by 1,500 soldiers with one eye, trying to find their way home.

The Bulgarian emperor Samuil had a heart attack at the sight of the blinded army and died 2 days later.

---

Then we have the infamous king Vlad Tsepesh "Dracula" who applied the scorched earth tactics on the invading Ottoman empire army, supplementing it with impaling thousands of captured Ottoman soldiers and posting them on the side of the road, stretching from the border of his empire, all the way inland, so the invading Ottoman army will be watching their impaled comrades for days.

The plan worked and the Ottomans retreated back, demoralised.

There is a reason for the phrase "I will go medieval on his ass!".

 

[j123]

This is the most f12 thread we’ve had in years

Grappling on teh streetz circa 1542

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Grappling on teh streetz circa 1542

Here is a cookie for you:


This style events are called Buhurt.
As we say, Buhurt is a diagnose, not a sport

 

[Ryo]

Enjoyable if feisty thread.

No doubt that spear and bow were always the pro military weapons. The other stuff was amateur and duel material.

Yes, there is no doubt that these were the first line weapons. However, to think that soldiers werent forced into grappling situations commonly would be a ridiculous assertion. You could drop your spear, it could break or the enemy could get around it. War is chaos and most of the time things dont go exactly as planned. I posted this video in another thread but it shows hows easily grappling situations could happen even with spears and armor. To think that this never happened on battlefields is ridiculous.

 

[Nada.]

As we say, Buhurt is a diagnose, not a sport

Haha, this is spot on.

 

[rmongler]

A not infrequent occurrence between opposing pike formations was the situation collapsing into a 'push of pike'.

That is to say, moshpit vs moshpit team sumo.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

You could drop your spear, it could break or the enemy could get around it.

Thats not how formations work.

The video you posted is a highlight of a demonstrations, they make for tourists.
Event starts with battle formations demo, then they do a few duels with spears, then with swords and etc.

This is how formations work.
Battle of Sekigahara:

Both sides came up with heavy infantry formations (spears and pikes, of course), heavy cavalry and firearms formations.

Contrary to the popular belief, that samurais had disdain for firearms, as soon as the matchlock was introduced in Japan, arquebuses and muskets were produced in very high volumes and Oda Nobunaga was famous for been a big fan.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

A not infrequent occurrence between opposing pike formations was the situation collapsing into a 'push of pike'.

That is to say, moshpit vs moshpit team sumo.

Ancient battle formations were all about pushing in groups.

Shield wall vs shield wall, pikes and polearms forward, everyone moves in one directions.
Those were battles of exhaustion, where flanking out or enveloping the opponent was the most important and turning point of the battle.

Once outflanked, formations were broken down and then massacred, hence the fast routing of entire armies:
"Live to fight another day"

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Best argument I've seen against killing/torturing prisoners is that if your enemies know it's what awaits them they won't surrender and fight to the death instead.

Nobody was surrendering to the Assyrians, or as they are known, "the Ancient Nazis".

Those guys were just brutal.

Here is what they were doing to captured men, women and children.
Flaying and hanging their skins on the castle's walls:

Impaling:

More flaying and beheadings:

And this is how their formidable military looked like:

Yes, that of course is their heavy infantry, with their spears, armors and large shields, proven over millennials, to be the most effective way of warfare.

Also, archers:

Light infantry:

Battle chariots:

Heavy cavalry:

Light cavalry:

Navy:

Divers:

Siege towers and rams:

If you look closely, you will see the sappers, digging under the walls of the besieged city:

Those guys were the full package, all in 2,500 BC!

Here they are, randomly killing some pesky lions:

Bish, GTFO my chariot!

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Also, let me introduce one more aspect of the military campaigns, that put grappling out of the equasion.

The Animals

War dogs:

Those were usually large breeds, like mastiffs.
It is known, that Cortez brought quite a few in his conquista.

Preserved dog armor:

Dogs were also used for executions:

The Assyrians also loved war dogs, of course:

it is one thing to face an enemy, that you can eventually surrender to.
It is a completely different story, when the enemy wants to eat your face and genitals.

War elephants:

 

[RemyR]

Well this is certainly a thread I didn’t expect to see when I logged into Sherdog

 

[tekkenfan]

Not so fast

Armies would fight until %10~%20 losses, then they will flee.

Now, what happens after, depends on the situation, motivation of the enemy and his final goal.

1st Bulgarian empire, emperor Samuil was at continuous war with the Byzantium empire.

In 1014, in battle at Klyuch, the Byzantium emperor Vasilius II captured 15,000 Bulgarian soldiers and nobles.

In a swift maneuver, the hair of the Bulgarian emperor, Gavrail Radomir, decimated small Byzantium army and killed with his spear the Byzantium emperor's favorite general.

In his rage, the Byzantium emperor Vasilius II ordered ALL of the captured 15,000 Bulgarian soldiers to be blinded and left just one eye to every 100 soldiers, to lead them back home.
Thats 13,500 blind soldiers, led by 1,500 soldiers with one eye, trying to find their way home.

The Bulgarian emperor Samuil had a heart attack at the sight of the blinded army and died 2 days later.
---

Then we have the infamous king Vlad Tsepesh "Dracula" who applied the scorched earth tactics on the invading Ottoman empire army, supplementing it with impaling thousands of captured Ottoman soldiers and posting them on the side of the road, stretching from the border of his empire, all the way inland, so the invading Ottoman army will be watching their impaled comrades for days.

The plan worked and the Ottomans retreated back, demoralised.

There is a reason for the phrase "I will go medieval on his ass!".

lol and people try to complain about things today being messed up xD

i dont see how 15000 men could be held down and made to have their eyes ripped out tho thats insane ud think their would be some major fighting going on

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

lol and people try to complain about things today being messed up xD

i dont see how 15000 men could be held down and made to have their eyes ripped out tho thats insane ud think their would be some major fighting going on

A lot of them were already beaten, injured and tired.
If they kept them hungry for a few days, then separated in smaller groups and proceeded with the operation, while keeping the small groups under control with archers and long sticks, not that difficult.

If you provide the option to a broken man, it is quite possible he would take it, with the promise he is going home, the other option been to die or to be sold in slavery, where he will be worked to death.

Also, most probably they were blinded with hot rods.

Japanese did similar stuff in WW2.
Germans did similar stuff in WW2.
Russians did similar stuff after WW2.
Everyone has been doing it from the beginning of time.