Girevoy Sport (kettlebells) conditioning.

[AdamJackson]

I'm sure this thread may very well appeal to a minimal portion of the MMA community, but I was just curious if anyone is practicing GS Sport (the official sport of kettlebell lifting), as part of their MMA training.
For those unfamiliar, GS sport typically consists of 10 minute rounds where you perform as many reps as possible. The lifts as either biathlon (one handed snatches & Jerks x 10 mins each), or clean and jerks (referred to as long cycle).
These lifts are commonly performed with 24kg, or 32kg competition kettlebells. The kettlebells are all the same shape and dimensions, but they vary in weight and colour, just like olympics weightlifting plates.
I think it is a very relevant tool for MMA conditioning. It's one of the single most effective sports for developing strength endurance, just as Olympic lifting is for power training.
Anyone train this way, or have developed similar methods of training from this sport?

 

[sadlerdan]

I plan on doing this but i'm not there yet. I"ve been working with kettlebells since january but really enjoy it. I did a lot of searches on the net for some good programs and tried a few but ended up doing the ETK just to make sure i was properly acclimated to it before i moved on to the sport stuff. I just completed the SSST so i might take a run at some of this stuff soon. I do notice that my muscular endurance has been raised and i also actually feel a bit more powerful, which I'm sure isn't solely from the KBs but also from some barbell work (but i have also been doing a hell of a lot of pull-ups on it). I also like the idea of ladders since it's been a bit of a refreshing change from my usual sets/reps program design.

I have noticed that focusing on the technique of using the KB has helped me to also focus more on my technique when doing oly lifts.

Anyways, I know you were looking for people who have done this so far, but i will just say i do plan on implementing this in with my mma training in the future.

How have you felt it has helped you? Have you done any other types of KB training? Have you competed in GS?

 

[AdamJackson]

How have you felt it has helped you? Have you done any other types of KB training? Have you competed in GS?

Yeah I started with the ETK stuff, and did lots of different stuff with the kettlebells. One thing that took me a while to figure out, is that if your after strength, the best thing to do is heavy barbell lifting. Kettlebells are not really designed to improve 1 rep max etc. Their area is strength endurance and work capacity.
I have recently started GS style, which I have found to be more effective, and technical. The stuff that the russian GS lifters are able to do compared to the typical 'hard' style lifters, is a whole new dimension.
Some good advice I've received was to not go for reps, but instead go for time. So I not think; strength/power = reps, work capacity = time. So for example a typical approach is do snatches for 6 minutes (3 mins each side), aiming for 12 reps/minute. I does require 'pacing', a bit like an endurance runner.
There is some good material becoming available through Steve Cotter. His early stuff is a little undeveloped, but he has evolved, and now has free youtube lesson, his forum has information, and I got his DVD 'The Boys Are Back In Town', which is full of great info.
I'm really getting into this whole GS thing. Combine GS lifting, Olympic lifting, and Strength training, and your going to be a pretty tough athlete!

 

[ASEGSEA]

I just started kettlebells yesteryday, so to hear there's an entire sport dedicated to them is news to me.

And 32kg's is a lot heavier than it sounds for a kettlebell.

 

[oyaji poi]

I'm sure this thread may very well appeal to a minimal portion of the MMA community, but I was just curious if anyone is practicing GS Sport (the official sport of kettlebell lifting), as part of their MMA training.
For those unfamiliar, GS sport typically consists of 10 minute rounds where you perform as many reps as possible. The lifts as either biathlon (one handed snatches & Jerks x 10 mins each), or clean and jerks (referred to as long cycle).
These lifts are commonly performed with 24kg, or 32kg competition kettlebells. The kettlebells are all the same shape and dimensions, but they vary in weight and colour, just like olympics weightlifting plates.
I think it is a very relevant tool for MMA conditioning. It's one of the single most effective sports for developing strength endurance, just as Olympic lifting is for power training.
Anyone train this way, or have developed similar methods of training from this sport?

How do you do a snatch and jerk? If you snatch the KB it's already above your head. Before you can jerk it you need to clean it, so wouldn't it be "snatch followed by a clean and jerk"?

 

[Tosa]

I think you should ask yourself what qualities you most need to develop to get better at MMA. It's possible that training in the manner you described will help, but it's also possible that you'd be better off building endurance with different lifts, or focusing more on your aerobic base, or HIIT work, etc.

I understand the appeal of doing different kinds of training and exercises, but you should ask yourself how you should train given your primary goals.

How do you do a snatch and jerk? If you snatch the KB it's already above your head. Before you can jerk it you need to clean it, so wouldn't it be "snatch followed by a clean and jerk"?

Maybe the kettlebell is lowered to the shoulder from overhead after the snatch, and then jerked?

 

[oyaji poi]

Maybe the kettlebell is lowered to the shoulder from overhead after the snatch, and then jerked?

That actually sounds like a good exercise to try.

 

[paolo27th]

I think you should ask yourself what qualities you most need to develop to get better at MMA. It's possible that training in the manner you described will help, but it's also possible that you'd be better off building endurance with different lifts, or focusing more on your aerobic base, or HIIT work, etc.

I understand the appeal of doing different kinds of training and exercises, but you should ask yourself how you should train given your primary goals.

Yeah, I really don't think kettlebels are essential to mma conditioning and the way they are usually used has little if any carryover. So involving oneself in a whole kettlebell sport may be a complete waste of time and energy - EDIT from an mma perspective.

 

[AdamJackson]

How do you do a snatch and jerk? If you snatch the KB it's already above your head. Before you can jerk it you need to clean it, so wouldn't it be "snatch followed by a clean and jerk"?

Actually, I meant that the two lifts are snatch.... and also jerk. Done separately . Sorry for the confusion.

I think you should ask yourself what qualities you most need to develop to get better at MMA. It's possible that training in the manner you described will help, but it's also possible that you'd be better off building endurance with different lifts, or focusing more on your aerobic base, or HIIT work, etc.

I understand the appeal of doing different kinds of training and exercises, but you should ask yourself how you should train given your primary goals

It sounds like you could be underestimating the effectiveness of GS sport as a work capacity tool. It's possibly one of the most effective tools (as olympic lifting is for power), and yes I do need better strength endurance at this stage...... however, even if I didn't, I enjoy Girevoy regardless and I would hate to think that anyone would avoid doing specific training that they enjoy because they don't think it's effective enough. My philosophy is.... we'll all be dead soon, so do what you enjoy, and don't take yourself too seriously.

 

[Tosa]

It sounds like you could be underestimating the effectiveness of GS sport as a work capacity tool.

I don't think so. Rather I think it's important to focus on what conditioning qualities need to be improved specifically, and a single activity/sport may not be able to do that. As many reps as possible in 10 minutes means that it's (probably) going to be a primarily aerobic activity, with relatively little benefit to the Anaerobic energy systems. And it could well be that focusing on the Anaerobic energy systems would result in a bigger improvement in your conditioning for MMA. Or alternatively maybe you'd benefit more from focusing on longer Steady State work to lower your resting heart rate. etc.

The point isn't that KBs aren't a useful conditioning tool, or that you're doing it wrong. Rather that KBs conditioning work is just a tool, and sometimes it could be the right tool, and sometimes in won't.

It's possibly one of the most effective tools (as olympic lifting is for power),

What are you basing the statement on?

Also, while olympic lifting is great for developing power, that doesn't mean it's the only way, or even always the best way to develop power. DE work or plyometrics are examples of other options. And for a complete beginner, just getting stronger is more significant. The point is there is no "best" and that the way to approach developing a specific quality depends on the individuals goals and circumstances.

and yes I do need better strength endurance at this stage......

Assuming it develops strength endurance where it's needed.

however, even if I didn't, I enjoy Girevoy regardless and I would hate to think that anyone would avoid doing specific training that they enjoy because they don't think it's effective enough. My philosophy is.... we'll all be dead soon, so do what you enjoy, and don't take yourself too seriously.

If enjoying your training is the priority, then absolutely, do what you enjoy, and I can't and won't say that doing otherwise would be better. If achieving specific goals is the priority, then there is room to discuss whether training differently would be more beneficial.

 

[oyaji poi]

If enjoying your training is the priority, then absolutely, do what you enjoy, and I can't and won't say that doing otherwise would be better. If achieving specific goals is the priority, then there is room to discuss whether training differently would be more beneficial.

I appreciate what you and Paolo wrote, but I think this aspect of enjoying training is often overlooked. For people who don't train MMA as a regularly competing amateur or pro I think GPP such as from typical kettlebell challenges and programmes is just fine as a "conditioning supplement" to the main activity of MMA.

 

[AdamJackson]

I appreciate what you and Paolo wrote, but I think this aspect of enjoying training is often overlooked. For people who don't train MMA as a regularly competing amateur or pro I think GPP such as from typical kettlebell challenges and programmes is just fine as a "conditioning supplement" to the main activity of MMA.

Absolutely agree. I think it could be hard to see the value of kettlebells, due to the common 'hard' style being so popular, and consequently many people think that kettlebells are for placing swings and turkish get ups into a circuit.
But the sport of kettlebell lifting itself certainly is an underrated tool (in a way it's good when something is underrated, as it gives us an advantage :icon_lol: )
The sport of olympic lifting may not be the only tool for developing power, but it certainly is an efficient and effective one, due to the fact that power is the whole point of the sport. Similarly, Girevoy sport is by no means the only method of developing work capacity, but it most certainly is a very effective one, as work capacity is the whole point behind that particular sport.
If you want strength, you train with high resistance for low reps, which barbells suit very well. If you want work capacity, you take a sub-maximal load to create resistance over time (rather than reps), which kettlebells suit very well.
Please understand, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, or seek for approval off others. I was more concerned with hearing from others who may train in this manner, and possible expose others who may be interested to a very enjoyable sport, and a whole new dimension to add to your training and life.

 

[AdamJackson]

I don't think so. Rather I think it's important to focus on what conditioning qualities need to be improved specifically, and a single activity/sport may not be able to do that. As many reps as possible in 10 minutes means that it's (probably) going to be a primarily aerobic activity, with relatively little benefit to the Anaerobic energy systems.

Actually that would be a question I would like to know the answer to. If I was doing 3 x 5 minute rounds of kettlebell clean and jerk and/or snatches, would that not have some carry over benefit into MMA conditioning? If not, what is the difference between the two energy systems?

 

[Tosa]

There's more than two energy systems. They're just divided into "aerobic" (Ie. directly using oxygen) and "anaerobic" (Ie. not directly using oxygen). Here's a very good graph:

One thing to keep in mind is that while a particular energy system may be dominant for a particular time frame/intensity, they all contribute all the time, sometimes just in very small amounts.

The first concern regarding conditioning is to develop a good aerobic base. This is because (1) ultimately anaerobic energy systems are connected to the aerobic energy system, and (2) anaerobic training requires high intensity, and also puts significant stress on the cardiovascular system, so if your aerobic conditioning is poor, you'll have a hard time with serious anaerobic work.

Improving any energy system is going to benefit you, but it could be that improving a different one would benefit you more. For example, less say you can pace yourself and do 3 x 5 minutes without to much trouble, but intense bursts of activity (10-20s) leave you gassed for the rest of the round ... then you'd be better off doing some prowler or hill sprints to improve the ATP-PC system.

 

[AdamJackson]

So if I love doing both Girevoy Sport and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, the Girevoy is going to have a little carry over into BJJ, but if I really want to kick also I should also include some sprints? Did I understand that correctly?

 

[paolo27th]

^^^No, it says you have to train whatever energy system you are lacking in.

Also, the best training in terms of carryover for BJJ is BJJ. If you want to condition for that I suggest you trying to have 2 maybe 3 extended sparring sessions a week - over 30min. That coupled with low intensity cardio+strenght training is going to turn you into a monster.

This is how I would train. Keeping it simple since BJJ is already complicated enough.

Also because BJJ is a heavily technical sport minor differences in conditioning have nowhere near same the impact as minor differences in technique. So if mat performance is your ultimate goal then you should simply aim to fit in as much mat time as possible.

So yeah, do your kettlebell stuff if you enjoy it but stop trying to convince yourself that it has much use for BJJ. If you want to improve your BJJ performance you know what you should be doing.
Posted via Mobile Device

 

[Tosa]

So if I love doing both Girevoy Sport and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, the Girevoy is going to have a little carry over into BJJ, but if I really want to kick also I should also include some sprints? Did I understand that correctly?

Not quite. The sprints were just part of an example. I don't know what your weak links are, so I can't tell you what you should focus on in training.

You'll make the greatest improvements by bringing up your weak links. It could well be the Girevoy will help you improve whatever your weak links are. But it could also be that it won't do much at all for improving those weak links. So first you have to figure out what you're weak links are, then you can figure out what sort of training would be best. So think about your training and when is it that you feel winded, gassed, shakey etc.

That said, if you enjoy both, you can do both if you really want to. But you probably won't be as good at either sport than if you dedicated your training entirely to it.

 

[AdamJackson]

Not quite. The sprints were just part of an example. I don't know what your weak links are, so I can't tell you what you should focus on in training.

You'll make the greatest improvements by bringing up your weak links. It could well be the Girevoy will help you improve whatever your weak links are. But it could also be that it won't do much at all for improving those weak links. So first you have to figure out what you're weak links are, then you can figure out what sort of training would be best. So think about your training and when is it that you feel winded, gassed, shakey etc.

That said, if you enjoy both, you can do both if you really want to. But you probably won't be as good at either sport than if you dedicated your training entirely to it.

Ahhhhh!! That help's actually. I never really find I get gassed anymore at all, but I do feel a little weak. I think I could be stronger.

 

[MusclesMarinara]

I could use a little help with KB training.

I just bought a 32kg which I use for TGU, clean and press, Sumo deathlift high pulls, and swings.

It's a little to heavy for snatches just yet. I don't feel like snapping my wrist with out good control.

I'm figuring I can add in bent presses and I'll try front squats.

I'm open to suggestions for other exercises. I'll have a look at Girevoy sport

 

[MusclesMarinara]

Damn you double post