German Volume Training - I want to try it

[ThaiFighter_83]

I've been doing the Bill Star 5x5 routine (the one linked in this message board, from "Eclipse Gym," written by "Head Coach") for 8 weeks now, and I think it's the best lifting routine I've ever tried. But I'm almost done with it.

Now I want to do German Volume Training, as the article suggests. But I have some questions...

It says to take a 90 second rest. Is that rest taken after I do one set of bench, then squat, then dynamic row? THEN I rest? THEN I do another set of bench, jump right away into a set of squats, then jump immediately into a set of dynamic rows, and then rest for 90 seconds again? That's how to do it, right?

On Monday (day 1), "Head Coach" says to do 10 sets for 10 reps each of Bench, Squat, and Dynamic Row with 60% of my 1RM. Then, on Friday (day 3), it says to do 10 sets for 6 reps each of the same exercises. QUESTION: Do I do 70% of my 1RM on Fridays? Or should it still be 60%? Or should it be a different percent?

What do I do on Wednesday (day 2)? It says you can apply the 10x10 with 60% of 1RM to the Deadlift, Military Press, and Pullups, but then it says you can do 6x10 or even 8x8 instead. Which one should I choose?

When do I take a deloading week? In the 5x5 routine, Head coach writes that you do 4 weeks of 5x5, then a deloading week, and then 4 weeks of 3x3. Does that same priniciple apply to German Volume Training? How long should my German Volume Training cycle be? When do I get to go back to 5x5?

 

[Deleted member 87037]

Don't do this just because it sounds cool. You're a noobie and I suggest a noobie routine. This will yield the greatest results.

Read the FAQ. Also, look up the "Starting Strength" routine by Mark Rippetoe (and buy the book and/or DVD as well). I recommend you do this routine for at least 6 months, maybe a year if your body can handle it. It's 3x/week, about an hour/session to start.

3 non-consecutive days/week (That means do not lift two days in a row). Alternate: A/B/A, B/A/B. Repeat. Rest 3-5 minutes between sets. First number = sets, second number = repetitions.

Day A
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench
1x5 Deadlift (Conventional – Meaning your legs are in between your arms)

Day B
3x5 Squat
3x5 Strict Overhead Press
5x3 Power Clean

If you still feel you have energy, add in some dips, chinups, or pull-ups, and some weighted core work like wall presses, turkish get ups, landmines, helicopters, saxon side bends, sit ups, etc. General rep scheme for these is 3x10/side.

Eat. A lot.

Finally, start a training log here in the "training logs" sub-forum, and keep us updated with your workouts. You'll receive helpful advice and motivation to succeed. Good luck.

 

[PowerHungry]

Are you still making gains with 5x5? If so, why not take a couple week break/deload and then do it again. Why do you want to do GVT? What are your goals?

 

[ThaiFighter_83]

My goal is sheer strength for MMA. Bill Star's 5x5 has worked wonders for me so far. And no, I'm not a noobie to lifting. I've been weight training consistantly for about a year and half now. And before that, I did it off and on for 5 years, and 5 years consistantly before that. So I've really had about 12 years experience. I am also a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist through the NSCA, and I have been a personal trainer for the last 3 years. I am absolutely not a noobie when it comes to lifting.

 

[chia]

Not trying to be rude or sarcastic here, but as a CSCS shouldn't you have an idea of what kind of training would be best to meet your goals? CSCS is probably the toughest cert out there and should cover programming specifically for sports, moreso than all the CPTs from ACSM, NASM, etc. NSCA probably doesn't get much respect around here but you probably know more than 90% of the posters who will blindly tell you to read the FAQ or do Starting Strength.

Anyways my personal suggestion is to stick with 5x5--GVT is more of a bodybuilding/muscle building type of workout. But honestly you should know better what will work for yourself--you're CSCS!. Maybe you're just being too modest about your knowledge...

Edit: just reread the thread and I probably should clarify, what I said wasn't directed at likkuid in any way. Sorry if it came across that way!

 

[Chaos Mitten**]

My goal is sheer strength for MMA. Bill Star's 5x5 has worked wonders for me so far. And no, I'm not a noobie to lifting. I've been weight training consistantly for about a year and half now. And before that, I did it off and on for 5 years, and 5 years consistantly before that. So I've really had about 12 years experience. I am also a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist through the NSCA, and I have been a personal trainer for the last 3 years. I am absolutely not a noobie when it comes to lifting.

That GVT program is designed for hypertrophy.

 

[Sakmongkol]

My goal is sheer strength for MMA. Bill Star's 5x5 has worked wonders for me so far. And no, I'm not a noobie to lifting. I've been weight training consistantly for about a year and half now. And before that, I did it off and on for 5 years, and 5 years consistantly before that. So I've really had about 12 years experience. I am also a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist through the NSCA, and I have been a personal trainer for the last 3 years. I am absolutely not a noobie when it comes to lifting.

May I ask what your numbers are?

 

[ThaiFighter_83]

Not trying to be rude or sarcastic here, but as a CSCS shouldn't you have an idea of what kind of training would be best to meet your goals?

I'm still constantly learning. Last time I checked my CSCS textbook, there weren't any chapters on 5x5 or GVT, or any workout programs that go into the extreme detail that the 5x5 link on this board goes into. THAT is what I need: SPECIFICS.

But honestly you should know better what will work for yourself--you're CSCS!. Maybe you're just being too modest about your knowledge...

Yeah, maybe I am. I'm sure I know more than the average person, but I empty my cup if I see something that might be better than my current program.

 

[ThaiFighter_83]

May I ask what your numbers are?

Right at the end of the 5x5 routine right now, and my deadlift is 330x3x3, military is 115x3x3, bench press is 220x3x3, squat is 250x3x3. I'm feeling super strong lately, though. I'm sure these numbers will go up next week. I'm on week 8 right now, so I still have 1-3 weeks before my body is fatigued on this routine, according to the link's instructions.

 

[rippingrudy]

10 sets of anything is too much but what the fuck do I know.

 

[Warchild10]

Go with a 5/3/1.

GVT IS FOR GROWING! Are you training right now? If you are, then unless you have an insane recovery ability... *insert favorite juicing product*... you wouldn't be able to train after maybe a week. You'd have to cut your skill training back due to volume of the program.

If you just want to try it out for shits and giggles then... By all means burn yourself out, but I will tell you. After 10x10 Squat day you won't be boxing, wrestling, bjj, or any damn thing but sitting on your ass watching Oprah flipping through your fancy CSCS textbook.

The 5/3/1 would be a lot more suitable for your goals, as far as ready made programing. If you would like to add in some GVT, then I'd suggest that you set up a training split that was something like this:

Tuesday & Thursday 5x5
Saturday GVT with Squat or Deadlift, and let it be the ONLY exercise you perform.

GVT doesn't have a deload cycle because its not really a LOADing program. It is designed to condition your body to move a X amount of weight for 10 reps for 10 sets. If you can complete 10 of 10, the weight is too light. You should look like this....
10,10,10,10,8,7,7,8,9,10 ... Well something like that, everyone is different. It'll typically take 3-4 weeks.

I like GVT. But for your goals its stupid, unless adding weight is your focus and you are taking time off from skill training.

 

[ThaiFighter_83]

what's 5/3/1? Is that a phase 3 for the 5x5 program? Right now I'm in the second phase, where everything is three sets for 3 reps. Should I do 1 set of 1 rep for everything when I'm done with 3x3? That sounds like fun!

Edit: Nevermind, I just googled it. I see it's something else. However, what if I did do what I just thought? What if I enter a Phase 3 of the 5x5 where you just do 1 rep and 1 set per exercise and go even heavier?

 

[Warchild10]

Again, if you are preparing for a fight, it would be counter productive, because you are not lifting for poundage. You are lifting for performance. If you want to do that then go ahead and do that. If you want advice on what will work to achieve optimum performance, then take my advice and do a 5/3/1 with 2 to 3 days of conditioning. Which is a four a day split, and when it comes down to contest time cut back the lifting to no more than 2 times a week.

I am preparing to fight at 170lbs. I train jiujitsu my stand up 5 days a week, MMA Sparring & Situational Sparring 4 days a week. I lift 5 days a week, (*edit: one of those lifting days is complexes and also counts to my conditioning days) due to addiction, with 2-3 days of conditioning. Right now I am recovering from a stupid back spasm that had nothing to do with my training, but a lot to do with a damned bicycle.

Now with a training regime like that, I still walk around at 188lbs at 5'11. So I am not just blowing smoke up your ass, I am actually going into a 5/3/1 as soon as I am 90%.

 

[Odin Lakeside]

My goal is sheer strength for MMA. Bill Star's 5x5 has worked wonders for me so far. And no, I'm not a noobie to lifting. I've been weight training consistantly for about a year and half now. And before that, I did it off and on for 5 years, and 5 years consistantly before that. So I've really had about 12 years experience. I am also a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist through the NSCA, and I have been a personal trainer for the last 3 years. I am absolutely not a noobie when it comes to lifting.

for MMA use only compund movements like the big three:
squats, deadlifts and flat bech press.
then add militery press (standing or seated), barbell or DB shrugs, barbell curls, dips, and pullups. sure you can add more but those are the basice for each muscle group that causes the most strength gains.

 

[TheBrewCrew**]

I am going to mini hijack this thread real quick since I don't want to make my own.

How do you guys feel about mixing a 5x3x1 and hypertrophy type workouts together. I'm flirting with the idea of basically breaking my workout into two sections. First do 5x3x1 style lifting on the big 3 lifts and OHSP then the second part of the workout be the high volume stuff. Take it mind my goals aren't to train for a sport or get stronger faster, but to grow muscle while building a solid strength base with the big 3.

 

[Warchild10]

I am going to mini hijack this thread real quick since I don't want to make my own.

How do you guys feel about mixing a 5x3x1 and hypertrophy type workouts together. I'm flirting with the idea of basically breaking my workout into two sections. First do 5x3x1 style lifting on the big 3 lifts and OHSP then the second part of the workout be the high volume stuff. Take it mind my goals aren't to train for a sport or get stronger faster, but to grow muscle while building a solid strength base with the big 3.

Uhm... HELLO YOU!

The 5/3/1 already has bulking program, if you get the ebook its 20 fuckin bucks and instant download. Besides, its a 4 day a week split. You just use your damned assistance lifts as your bulk lifts. I am going to use the Triumvirate program, which means I am just doing 3 exercises because its pretty much how I have always trained. Expect he says to use a higher volume than I am use to. So I am debating on that part though.

 

[TheBrewCrew**]

I guess I'm going to have to torrent that book then

 

[SherTiger1]

That GVT program is designed for hypertrophy.

I know this is primarily a strength forum and workouts geared towards hypertrophy/bodybuilding generally get bashed, but I've also heard/read that the simple strength workouts (ie big 3, compounds, high weight low reps) are also great for adding muscle, with testimonials from people saying that gained more muscle (not just strength) when doing these routines than in their BB days.

So with that being said, is the general consensus that the type of routines advocated around here are best for strength AND muscle? Or are people conceding that their geared for strength but there's better hypertrophy routines out there?

p.s. I'm talking with regards to natural lifters who have jobs if that makes any difference, e.g. if BB workouts only work for people juicing with maximum recovery conditions?

Also, for the record, I'm looking to increase both Strength and Muscle, but enjoy compounds and lowish reps (5) more than high rep workouts.

 

[Warchild10]

When it comes to adding size. Eat.

I can say that the GVT is awesome for adding size.
Honestly Tiger... I'd tell you to do the 5/3/1 or Bill Star(Madcow, whatever) and either way it goes you will add size and it won't have bad signs of recovery. Bill Star's program is a football off season workout for Bulking and adding muscle size. So in essence you will grow. So the answer is.. Yes.

Now the way that muscle looks at the end is all depending on your diet.